agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 9, 2021 13:26:29 GMT
I voted against Covid.... You must be really hacked off at this government's utter mismanagement of it, then. Worst thing is, it allows them to pretend things are the fault of Covid rather than Brexit. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59070020I'm certain that remoaners would be more than happy to use this in reverse wherever possible!
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JamesFrance
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Port Grimaud 1974
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Post by JamesFrance on Nov 9, 2021 17:56:22 GMT
I think it's interesting that some people believe that a degree is a measure of intelligence. I cannot be the only one who had the A levels required but decided to get on with life instead of spending longer at school, being influenced by teachers who have no experience of real life but think they are superior.
By the age of 30 I had a large house with garaging for 5 cars in Altrincham, a Sunbeam Tiger and a Jaguar for business. I was self employed of course with 2 companies so I don't consider myself to be thick even if some forum members may do so.
Being in France at the time I never got the postal vote I asked for so didn't vote, but did like the idea of brexit.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 9, 2021 18:27:35 GMT
I think it's interesting that some people believe that a degree is a measure of intelligence. I asked if that's what it was being used for, since no polling takes account of IQ. In the context, I don't think it's an unreasonable parallel to draw, although it is certainly far from perfect as it doesn't take account of increased accessibility to higher education over the decades. With all due respect, IIRC you would have passed through the educational system at a VERY different time to anybody in the workforce now. If you had have gone to university, it would have been at a time when there were only 17,000 people graduating from university per year, when 70% of 15 year olds had already left full-time education. You would have entered the workforce at a time when there was a massive shortage of working-age men, and where half of the population was deeply discouraged from having any career aspirations - or working at all. People reaching retirement age today would have been attending university at a time when the school leaving age was 16, there were more than 2/3 of a million higher education students in this country, and sex discrimination in the workplace was illegal. People in their 40s now would have been attending university at a time when there were 2.5m. People in their 30s now went to school at a time when it was illegal to leave full-time education before 18. There's a certain irony in that, since one of the main aims of Brexit was to stop anybody else from easily being able to do that.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 9, 2021 19:03:10 GMT
I think it's interesting that some people believe that a degree is a measure of intelligence. I cannot be the only one who had the A levels required but decided to get on with life instead of spending longer at school, being influenced by teachers who have no experience of real life but think they are superior.
By the age of 30 I had a large house with garaging for 5 cars in Altrincham, a Sunbeam Tiger and a Jaguar for business. I was self employed of course with 2 companies so I don't consider myself to be thick even if some forum members may do so.
Being in France at the time I never got the postal vote I asked for so didn't vote, but did like the idea of brexit.
Similarly, being sucessful in business doesn't necessarily convey intelligence either. If ou look at Alan Sugar, Richard Branson and Philip Green they probably don't have a handfull of O-levels between them, let alone A-levels
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Nov 9, 2021 19:24:23 GMT
I did find the further education gave me the opportunity to gain confidence and widened horizons so that life was no longer an effort to prove and achieve , but to enjoy in all its aspects.
I'm not sure that this so with most today's graduates. I guess 'Uni' is somewhat less than 60 years ago.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 9, 2021 19:46:33 GMT
I think it's interesting that some people believe that a degree is a measure of intelligence. I cannot be the only one who had the A levels required but decided to get on with life instead of spending longer at school, being influenced by teachers who have no experience of real life but think they are superior.
By the age of 30 I had a large house with garaging for 5 cars in Altrincham, a Sunbeam Tiger and a Jaguar for business. I was self employed of course with 2 companies so I don't consider myself to be thick even if some forum members may do so.
Being in France at the time I never got the postal vote I asked for so didn't vote, but did like the idea of brexit.
Why is that 'interesting' ? Being able to achieve a certain level of academic excellence is a measure of intelligence. But the emphasis should be on the " a". It does not mean that the converse is true: i.e. that not having a degree is a measure of a lack of intelligence. There are many forms of intelligence and many ways in which it shows. And there are also those who might have the same type of intelligence that might more commonly expect to be 'measured' by specific types of achievement - e.g. attained education level - but who never got to 'attain' that for many and varied reasons.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 9, 2021 22:31:55 GMT
I was having a similar discussion with my Partner, we both left school over 40 years ago
as I remember and her recollection is similar
round about 33% of children went to Grammar School
of that cohort maybe 50% went into 6th form plus an odd few that joined from the comprehensive / secondary modern
of that cohort <50% went to university
so about 1/12 went to university, of course this was a Northern town so a lower figure than more affluent areas which would give the overall 14% that the stats show
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Post by bernythedolt on Nov 10, 2021 2:15:11 GMT
I think it's interesting that some people believe that a degree is a measure of intelligence. I cannot be the only one who had the A levels required but decided to get on with life instead of spending longer at school, being influenced by teachers who have no experience of real life but think they are superior.
By the age of 30 I had a large house with garaging for 5 cars in Altrincham, a Sunbeam Tiger and a Jaguar for business. I was self employed of course with 2 companies so I don't consider myself to be thick even if some forum members may do so. Only ignorant people, and there aren't many of those here. And you certainly aren't alone, James. I'm another with three good A-levels, but for whom real life got in the way of university at age 18. During those A-levels, I fell for the girl who is still my wonderful wife 50 years on, and we decided we had to go to work and save towards a house deposit rather than waste three more years unpaid studying. My perspective is slightly different, though, because we both deferred our education and graduated in our thirties instead, courtesy of that marvellous institution, the Open University. The point is, obtaining our degrees later in life didn't suddenly make us any more intelligent than we were in our twenties. So I have to agree the possession or otherwise of a degree is not a reliable guide to intelligence. Loads of intelligent people don't go on to university, for a whole variety of reasons.
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JamesFrance
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Post by JamesFrance on Nov 10, 2021 8:45:34 GMT
I do think it was a mistake to make young people feel that they need to get a degree so as not to be weeded out during selection from so many jobs, especially low level public sector posts. They are now left with huge levels of debt which they will spend most of their working lives repaying with nothing much in return. My granddaughter has only now started work for the first time at the age of 24 having returned for a masters degree which again seems a requirement for being successful with job applications. Obviously most professions need further education.
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09dolphin
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Post by 09dolphin on Nov 10, 2021 9:09:30 GMT
I left school 57 years ago at 16 because my family needed me to work to contribute to the household (I could have left school at 15 years but my family decided that it was more important I took some GCEs for employment opportunities).
Since leaving school I have obtained a BA and MBA.
I very much doubt my IQ has increased much since I was 16 years old so I do question if a degree should be considered as being reflective of IQ. I do acknowledge that my capacity to critically assess an argument has increased.
As I have stated previously I couldn't decide if I should vote for or against remaining in the EU. My main concerns were the lack of democracy in the EU + the UK's loss of sovereignty in terms of leaving and the favourable trading conditions we had if we remained. There were many other issues I took into consideration but I've just mentioned the main issues that to me were important.
My opinion since Brexit hasn't changed and I am still undecided if Brexit was correct or not.
Can I say that I am dismayed that there wasn't the oven ready deal we were assured existed and that the UK seems to be lacking in able negotiators.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Nov 10, 2021 9:24:34 GMT
The EU was on its way to becoming a totalitarian state ,governed by a group of self electing bureacrats .
It had morphed from an agreeble trading arrangement to a greedy self perpetuating monster.
Of course leaving is a bumpy ride and those who benefited from the organisation are disgruntled.
Time to dismantle the glass palace and build a better one .
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 10, 2021 9:54:52 GMT
The EU was on its way to becoming a totalitarian state "Totalitarian" in what way? Please give examples. No, governed by MEPs elected by the public across the member states.
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Post by overthehill on Nov 10, 2021 10:07:23 GMT
The EU was on its way to becoming a totalitarian state ,governed by a group of self electing bureacrats . It had morphed from an agreeble trading arrangement to a greedy self perpetuating monster. Of course leaving is a bumpy ride and those who benefited from the organisation are disgruntled. Time to dismantle the glass palace and build a better one .
I couldn't believe we voted to leave even though the campaigning and propaganda effort was so one-sided. Corbyn and Labour were an embarassment. How does any Labour MP have the gall to complain about any Brexit damage ?
There were a lot of EU gripes but I think the one which gained enough votes to get over the line was the EU's refusal to admit their was an immigration problem and to come up with some sensible legislation. It is still pulling the EU apart and might even break it up. No border control also means no security against terrorists, another great vote winner.
At least UK politicians have constituents unlike the overpaid reps holidaying in Brussels.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 10, 2021 10:20:34 GMT
...but I think the one which gained enough votes to get over the line was the EU's refusal to admit their was an immigration problem The only migration that the EU had any say over whatsoever was that of EU citizens between EU countries - and free movement of people was one of the very foundations of the EEC back in the 1950s. It was in place a decade and a half before the UK joined. And, to put that into perspective, in 2019, 3.3% of EU citizens of working age lived in an EU country other than the one they were born in. www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workersBrexit hasn't stopped free movement. The other 27 countries are fine with it, and it continues unabated. The citizens of 26 of those 27 countries lost access to live and work in just one country. But the citizens of that one country voluntarily deprived ourselves of access to all but one of the others. Everything else was outside the EU's control - non-EU migration was always entirely the UK's responsibility, while asylum came under UN treaties that the UK is still bound to. Brexit didn't change anything there. There were plenty of restrictions the UK government could have implemented, but chose not to, under the Free Movement Directive (2004/38/EC) www.legislation.gov.uk/eudr/2004/38/contents
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 10, 2021 11:27:21 GMT
The EU was on its way to becoming a totalitarian state "Totalitarian" in what way? Please give examples. No, governed by MEPs elected by the public across the member states. the Parliament can only adopt or amend legislation proposed by the council, it is usually presented with a choice of one candidate to approve for roles. that sounds to me to be something akin to the parliament in totalitarian states The MEPs have very little power most is held by the like of VDL etc who are not elected by the people of the EU
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