JamesFrance
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Post by JamesFrance on Dec 6, 2021 17:18:26 GMT
You will always find something negative to quote to support your extreme left wing view of the world, usually written by the hateful Guardian writers. I remember many years ago being advised that when trying to decide what to think about anything to see what Polly Toynbee said and know that the opposite view would be the decent one.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 6, 2021 17:30:20 GMT
You will always find something negative to quote to support your extreme left wing view of the world My world view could not be further from "extreme left wing". It's actually pretty centrist by any non-US political spectrum. Economically, I lean slightly right-of-centre; socially, I lean slightly left. But I notice that you seem to be pointing to a squirrel to avoid the minor details I raised.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Dec 6, 2021 17:31:28 GMT
Did someone say "fraud"?  |
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Dec 6, 2021 17:52:37 GMT
You will always find something negative to quote to support your extreme left wing view of the world My world view could not be further from "extreme left wing". It's actually pretty centrist by any non-US political spectrum. Economically, I lean slightly right-of-centre; socially, I lean slightly left. But I notice that you seem to be pointing to a squirrel to avoid the minor details I raised. Clearly a Red Squirrel then 
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Dec 6, 2021 18:01:56 GMT
Did someone say "fraud"? That got a proper good laugh out of me, thanks  .
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 7, 2021 1:39:50 GMT
Good idea or not (and not everyone will agree), the point is, Remainer Clegg lied about this and told Farage he was fantasising when he raised it. Except for the minor detail that he didn't, and he was. Except for the minor detail that it's all on record... April 2014 - "Mr Clegg said... [Farage's] claims the EU wanted its own army were a "dangerous fantasy that is simply not true"".
March 2015 - "European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has called for the creation of a European army".
- "Mr Juncker has voiced support for a European army before".
- "With its own army, Europe could react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state or in a neighbouring state," he said in an interview with German newspaper Die Welt.
- German Defence Minster Ursula von der Leyen, welcomed the idea. "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army," she told a German radio station.
[ All from here ]
So was arch remainer Clegg being honest and truthful, or was he trying shamefully to discredit Farage? All seems pretty clear to me.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 7, 2021 2:04:31 GMT
adrianc ... I see a Frenchman at that table. That doesn't mean he was negotiating on behalf of France... Oh, please. You don't understand the French psyche if you really believe that. My point is, Blair knew the UK's soft underbelly, he had Micron's ear and obviously Micron had Barnier's ear. Blair knew how to inflict maximum damage against the UK during negotiations and was happy to help the EU do so. Prepared to undermine UK democracy to achieve his own selfish outcome.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 7, 2021 7:58:46 GMT
Except for the minor detail that he didn't, and he was. Except for the minor detail that it's all on record... April 2014 - "Mr Clegg said... [Farage's] claims the EU wanted its own army were a "dangerous fantasy that is simply not true"".
March 2015 - "European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has called for the creation of a European army".
- "Mr Juncker has voiced support for a European army before".
- "With its own army, Europe could react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state or in a neighbouring state," he said in an interview with German newspaper Die Welt.
- German Defence Minster Ursula von der Leyen, welcomed the idea. "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army," she told a German radio station.
[ All from here ]
So was arch remainer Clegg being honest and truthful, or was he trying shamefully to discredit Farage? All seems pretty clear to me. How many times... Clegg was right. It IS a fantasy. I don't agree with him about it being particularly dangerous, but it IS a fantasy. Some people have said things about wanting it, and it's quite publicly popular in some countries (polling in NL has put support at nearly 40%) but it's never been any kind of official policy, and it's simply never going to happen. You were wrong. You said that Juncker "called for it" weeks after the referendum - he didn't. Months after the referendum, he suggested that a single headquarters, like NATO's SHAPE, would be a good idea for the pre-existing co-operation. It would seem to be exactly that to me. Frankly, I can't understand what's so terrifying about a central EU military, anyway. It's not like it'd replace national ones, and it's not like anybody would be being conscripted into it... let alone the people shouting loudest against it... The biggest count against it is that we need less military, not more, but at least it could replace the member co-operation for peacekeeping and disaster relief. And does Farridge (who, let me remind you, has never been an MP and has never been personally elected to anything, despite having stood unsuccessfully in more elections than just about anybody outside the Monster Raving Loony Party) really need any help from anybody in being discredited? He does that every time he opens his own gob. I notice his latest is that he's "seriously musing" another political comeback, anti-migrant this time, after swearing blind each time previously that that was the last time... That doesn't mean he was negotiating on behalf of France... Oh, please. You don't understand the French psyche if you really believe that. My point is, Blair knew the UK's soft underbelly, he had Micron's ear and obviously Micron had Barnier's ear. Blair knew how to inflict maximum damage against the UK during negotiations and was happy to help the EU do so. Prepared to undermine UK democracy to achieve his own selfish outcome. Do you actually know the difference between France and the EU? Do you understand that Macron is the president of France, so just one of 27 national leaders feeding his preferences to the EU? Do you really believe this outdated hundred-years-war entrenched rivalry guff? Do you really believe that the EU did not have plenty of understanding of the UK's position and the skillsets (or lack thereof) of the negotiating team without the help of somebody who'd been out of UK politics for a decade by that point?
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 7, 2021 13:02:18 GMT
Except for the minor detail that it's all on record... April 2014 - "Mr Clegg said... [Farage's] claims the EU wanted its own army were a "dangerous fantasy that is simply not true"".
March 2015 - "European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has called for the creation of a European army".
- "Mr Juncker has voiced support for a European army before".
- "With its own army, Europe could react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state or in a neighbouring state," he said in an interview with German newspaper Die Welt.
- German Defence Minster Ursula von der Leyen, welcomed the idea. "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army," she told a German radio station.
[ All from here ]
So was arch remainer Clegg being honest and truthful, or was he trying shamefully to discredit Farage? All seems pretty clear to me. How many times... Clegg was right. It IS a fantasy. I don't agree with him about it being particularly dangerous, but it IS a fantasy. Some people have said things about wanting it, and it's quite publicly popular in some countries (polling in NL has put support at nearly 40%) but it's never been any kind of official policy, and it's simply never going to happen. You were wrong. You said that Juncker "called for it" weeks after the referendum - he didn't. Months after the referendum, he suggested that a single headquarters, like NATO's SHAPE, would be a good idea for the pre-existing co-operation. It would seem to be exactly that to me. Frankly, I can't understand what's so terrifying about a central EU military, anyway. It's not like it'd replace national ones, and it's not like anybody would be being conscripted into it... let alone the people shouting loudest against it... The biggest count against it is that we need less military, not more, but at least it could replace the member co-operation for peacekeeping and disaster relief. And does Farridge (who, let me remind you, has never been an MP and has never been personally elected to anything, despite having stood unsuccessfully in more elections than just about anybody outside the Monster Raving Loony Party) really need any help from anybody in being discredited? He does that every time he opens his own gob. I notice his latest is that he's "seriously musing" another political comeback, anti-migrant this time, after swearing blind each time previously that that was the last time... These were not "some people", but major players in the EU hierarchy, Juncker and von der Leyen for starters. The rest of your argument is a distraction from the central point that Clegg was lying when he attempted to dismiss Farage's discussion point as fantasy. The record shows otherwise.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 7, 2021 13:07:57 GMT
How many times... Clegg was right. It IS a fantasy. I don't agree with him about it being particularly dangerous, but it IS a fantasy. Some people have said things about wanting it, and it's quite publicly popular in some countries (polling in NL has put support at nearly 40%) but it's never been any kind of official policy, and it's simply never going to happen. These were not "some people", but major players in the EU hierarchy, Juncker and von der Leyen for starters. Yes, but it was never - and still isn't - EU policy. This is what St Nige of the Farridge actually said in the run-up to the ref... That's the bit that's fantasy. Plus, of course, the UK would have had a veto, and the 2011 European Union Act (passed by the coalition after Brown ratified Lisbon) would have meant that would have required a legally-binding public referendum... But perhaps you could explain what would be so terrible about it if it did happen, though? Others went even further, suggesting it would mean the UK would have had to give up all control of any defence... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36383211That's not just fantasy, that's lunacy.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Dec 7, 2021 13:24:21 GMT
iirc there was some talk of setting up an EU combined armed forces headquarters structure, and possibly of units serving together / intermingling to improve interoperability. But this was in the context of:-
1. Continued (correct) criticisms of most EU countries' failure to meet the NATO expected 2% of GDP spend.
2. Continued, typical, normal divergence of views about how the EU's foreign and external security policies should be addressed.
3. The wiser heads in NATO wanting both more European strategic autonomy AND not to undermine NATO.
4. It all came about after EU (Cameron / Sarkozy) intervention in Libya would have failed without US support and direction, and after it was made painfully clear how inadequate EU forces and interoperability were in the Former Yugoslavia where again the EU was incapable of operating without substantial US support.
5. And then final catalyst for it was Trump undermining NATO at every level.
So it wasn't a terrible in the first place, never amounted to much, and came to even less. Presenting it as an "EU Army" is something of an exaggeration.
Accusing Clegg of lying off the back of that is a bit of a stretch.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 7, 2021 13:24:52 GMT
These were not "some people", but major players in the EU hierarchy, Juncker and von der Leyen for starters. Yes, but it was never - and still isn't - EU policy. This is what St Nige of the Farridge actually said in the run-up to the ref... That's the bit that's fantasy. Plus, of course, the UK would have had a veto, and the 2011 European Union Act (passed by the coalition after Brown ratified Lisbon) would have meant that would have required a legally-binding public referendum... But perhaps you could explain what would be so terrible about it if it did happen, though? Others went even further, suggesting it would mean the UK would have had to give up all control of any defence... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36383211That's not just fantasy, that's lunacy. I neither know nor care whether it's a good idea. What I DO care about is politicians closing down serious debate, as Clegg did, by dismissing genuine concerns on the direction of travel as mere fantasy.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 7, 2021 13:34:12 GMT
Yes, but it was never - and still isn't - EU policy. This is what St Nige of the Farridge actually said in the run-up to the ref... That's the bit that's fantasy. Plus, of course, the UK would have had a veto, and the 2011 European Union Act (passed by the coalition after Brown ratified Lisbon) would have meant that would have required a legally-binding public referendum... But perhaps you could explain what would be so terrible about it if it did happen, though? Others went even further, suggesting it would mean the UK would have had to give up all control of any defence... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36383211That's not just fantasy, that's lunacy. I neither know nor care whether it's a good idea. But can you explain to me why so many Brexiteers find it so repellent that it keeps getting brought up, as you have done here, as a reason to leave? Calling fantasy out for what it is, fantasy, is not closing down debate. Blatantly and knowingly lying to the public is not debate. It's dangerous. Farage said - and you can see his own words - that the EU were "pushing for" an EU army. The EU weren't. The EU aren't. The EU never have been. The EU is not a few individuals, any more than it's any one member state. Some people have suggested it, yes, but it has NEVER been EU policy. And, even if it were, any one member country could have stopped it dead. This is all basic facts and reality that simply shoots Farage's claim down, dead. Pointing to that and saying "fantasy" is simply a truism. Farage was lying when he called people liars for telling the truth.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 7, 2021 13:51:11 GMT
I neither know nor care whether it's a good idea. But can you explain to me why so many Brexiteers find it so repellent that it keeps getting brought up, as you have done here, as a reason to leave? I didn't bring it up as a reason to leave. I brought it up to counterbalance the suggestion that only the Remain side is squeaky clean.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 7, 2021 14:08:34 GMT
OK, so it was a total and utter irrelevance to the campaign - not a reason to leave, at all.
In which case, why would disagreement between Farage and Clegg be relevant to this thread?
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