james100
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Post by james100 on Dec 9, 2020 12:07:43 GMT
I think even Boris Johnson has worked out that attempting to dodge responsibility does not remove the consequences of his actions.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Dec 9, 2020 12:19:35 GMT
You didn't have to ask them, it was all there in black and white what remain meant. Sure, you could try and change our relationship within the EU (Euro, opt outs etc) in future, but that's a different issue. What Leave meant was deliberately opaque, by the explicit design of Cummings et al. OK so what do you think remain meant other than staying in the EU? Where would you want (or wouldn't want) the EU to go in the future? And do all remainers agree on that? Let's not forget that before the referendum there was a renegotiation with the EU that David Cameron argued gave the UK "special status within the European Union". So Remain meant precisely staying in the EU under the newly agreed terms.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 9, 2020 12:33:19 GMT
Edit: Of course you could ask remainers exactly their position on the EU, exactly what sort of remain were they signing up for, closer unity, a federal Europe, using the euro, or the status quo, and what if their sort of remain didn't happen? Surely it was very simple... Remain just meant "don't leave". No more, no less. Situation normal. As it was. No change. But "leave" was never ever going to be such a binary option. It couldn't be. Even the people arguing for it didn't agree on what it should be - but they all agreed it was definitely not going to be what we now have. Nothing's changed from the EU's side.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 9, 2020 12:35:17 GMT
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Dec 9, 2020 12:44:42 GMT
Also, if you look at it from the EU's point of view, they spent years negotiating and agreeing new membership terms with the UK government of the time (Cameron), only to see it rejected by the referendum. Then they spend a few more years negotiating and agreeing a Withdrawal Agreement with the new UK government (May), only to see it rejected by Parliament and had to start negotiating again with Johnson...
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 9, 2020 12:51:16 GMT
You didn't have to ask them, it was all there in black and white what remain meant. Sure, you could try and change our relationship within the EU (Euro, opt outs etc) in future, but that's a different issue. What Leave meant was deliberately opaque, by the explicit design of Cummings et al. OK so what do you think remain meant other than staying in the EU? Where would you want (or wouldn't want) the EU to go in the future? And do all remainers agree on that? It seems the argument being made is that leavers had a variety of expectations of what leaving would mean, but remainers also had different expectations of what staying would mean. The choice at the time was binary stay or leave, everyone weighed up whether they thought the long term future should be inside or outside Europe with all the possibilities either could hold. I think remain meant staying in the EU with the new terms Cameron had negotiated. I think the vast, vast majority of remainers would have thought that. The simple issue is that there really isn't much option within remain. There are treaties, and all you can suggest is a renegotiation of those treaties every so often. There aren't several types of EU on offer. The difference is that with leave there were/are inherently a huge number of options. CU, SM, Canada, Switzerland, Norway, no deal, May's deal, current Canada--. Etc.
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dovap
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Post by dovap on Dec 9, 2020 13:03:40 GMT
seems like confirmation that we got nowt - no airbrushing needed. poor old Dave
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 9, 2020 13:33:52 GMT
seems like confirmation that we got nowt - no airbrushing needed. poor old Dave Umm, did you read the same article I just linked to...? Direct quotes:- Migration/Benefits - "trophy achievement", "a win for Cameron" Euro safeguards - "a significant win for Cameron" Working Time Directive - nothing Budgets and EU waste - "a pledge to continue work on cutting red tape" Child benefit - "immediate reduction for new claims, four year transition for existing" Sham marriages - "Commission will adopt a proposal" Red card for national parliaments - "A win" Ever-closer union - "A win for Cameron" Security - "A win" Multi-currency - "recognition in writing" So the only one that doesn't acknowledge positive results is the WTD, with five of the ten areas being described as "a win", and three others basically saying "yep, agreed". The only remaining one was a four-year transition period on the child benefit, which would have expired at the start of this year.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Dec 9, 2020 13:44:34 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 9, 2020 13:49:52 GMT
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dovap
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Post by dovap on Dec 9, 2020 14:01:52 GMT
seems like confirmation that we got nowt - no airbrushing needed. poor old Dave Umm, did you read the same article I just linked to...? Direct quotes:- Migration/Benefits - "trophy achievement", "a win for Cameron" Euro safeguards - "a significant win for Cameron" Working Time Directive - nothing Budgets and EU waste - "a pledge to continue work on cutting red tape" Child benefit - "immediate reduction for new claims, four year transition for existing" Sham marriages - "Commission will adopt a proposal" Red card for national parliaments - "A win" Ever-closer union - "A win for Cameron" Security - "A win" Multi-currency - "recognition in writing" So the only one that doesn't acknowledge positive results is the WTD, with five of the ten areas being described as "a win", and three others basically saying "yep, agreed". The only remaining one was a four-year transition period on the child benefit, which would have expired at the start of this year. yep I think so, perhaps we drew different conclusions Anyway if we're selectively clipping then Direct quotes:- Migration/Benefits - "trophy achievement", "a win for Cameron" - "unable to remove the “tapering mechanism”", " only fully denies in-work benefits for one year, not four" "no mention of the benefits changes being protected by treaty change" Euro safeguards - "a significant win for Cameron" - "Although in practice a British Prime Minister has usually had this power" Working Time Directive - nothing Budgets and EU waste - "a pledge to continue work on cutting red tape" - yep a 'pledge' "continue it's efforts to reduce regulatory burden" nowt Child benefit - "immediate reduction for new claims, four year transition for existing" - Cameron appears to have given the most ground in order to win his headline "critics will point out this is a very long way from the manifesto pledge." Sham marriages - "Commission will adopt a proposal" Red card for national parliaments - "A win" - "will hold a “comprehensive discussion" "Critics will argue this is a 'red card' that, in practice, will never be shown". Ever-closer union - "A win for Cameron" - "This is a blow to Mr Cameron’s calls for the EU to accept the need for a looser, more flexible ‘live and let live’ Europe" Security - "A win" Multi-currency - "recognition in writing" - "the deal text as a whole gives less credence to Mr Cameron’s desire for a “live and let live” Europe than Britain would have liked" and this is the spritzed up version to show the 'renegotiation went well ah well
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 9, 2020 14:08:45 GMT
and this is the spritzed up version to show the 'renegotiation went well ...from the TELEGRAPH? Not exactly known for being euro-friendly...
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 9, 2020 16:21:45 GMT
So what do people mke of tonight's meeting. Is it the last supper, or the amuse-bouche?
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 9, 2020 16:36:56 GMT
So what do people mke of tonight's meeting. Is it the last supper, or the amuse-bouche? Boris is pretty experienced at this. A few few glasses of wine then back to his hotel room. Then nine months later, the happy event. Churchill be damned! Our man's got much more form in this sort of diplomatic relations.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Dec 9, 2020 16:43:25 GMT
Well you could say that's Karma too. The sort of person that voted for Brexit is perhaps the kind of person less likely to eat Brie or Camembert in the first place. A 40% increase in the cost of Roquefort - thats really going to upset the red wall constituents.
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