benaj
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Post by benaj on Jan 7, 2021 11:25:39 GMT
It's very sad, of course, but Trump explicitly threatened this and has been inciting violence within his fanbase for years...he's also deliberately courted foreign influence in the democratic system of US and installed his family in many key roles of the state so no great shakes there either. I'm surely not the only one finding the newly-adopted 'social distancing' of many of our beloved politicians today faintly hilarious? Thank heavens for the interwebs where our public allegiances are preserved to infinity and beyond. Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, Michael Gove and the entire Brexit Party "Bad Boys" were fully supportive of this trajectory until (earliest point) they thought he might lose the last election. In the words of our current Leader of the House of Commons: "It is our national good fortune that the president with whom we will develop this new arrangement is Mr Trump. His election depended upon similar factors to those that led to Brexit. He appealed to voters left behind by the metropolitan elite and he exudes confidence about his own nation and a determination not to be a manager of decline, which also inspires the Brexiteers. " ( source) This is a great opportunity for our government to re-evaluate the way it should be seeking to unify our nation instead of actively stoking division in the manner it has adopted for the past 5 years. that’s what the CCP been doing for decades.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jan 7, 2021 11:31:00 GMT
In terms of culpability, Trump was " apparently unwilling to set troops on his own supporters. The New York Times reported he resisted calling out the national guard. The deployment was finally ordered by the acting secretary of defence, Christopher Miller" ( Guardian). Certainly the relative ease with which these lunatics managed to break in seems astounding. Prior to this, there was an active debate as whether prosecuting Trump would be in the country's interest. The main argument against being that doing so, though technically justified, could enflame/raise tensions/divisions further and not ultimately be worth it. Now though, even when the dust has settled, I do not see how they couldn't in good conscience prosecute him, surely?
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jan 7, 2021 11:41:21 GMT
10 words (including "nevertheless") in favour of order and democracy 59 words egging the riot on. "It's only the beginning of our fight"In 2 weeks time Trump's imunity from prosecution lapses and the legal cases will start.
I suspect he will have a fight in the future, but possibly not the sort that he is currently contemplating.
www.trumphotels.com/ireland?utm_source=google-local&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=gmbMay be he will play series of golf first
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 7, 2021 11:54:38 GMT
In terms of culpability, Trump was " apparently unwilling to set troops on his own supporters. The New York Times reported he resisted calling out the national guard. The deployment was finally ordered by the acting secretary of defence, Christopher Miller" ( Guardian). Certainly the relative ease with which these lunatics managed to break in seems astounding.Prior to this, there was an active debate as whether prosecuting Trump would be in the country's interest. The main argument against being that doing so, though technically justified, could enflame/raise tensions/divisions further and not ultimately be worth it. Now though, even when the dust has settled, I do not see how they couldn't in good conscience prosecute him, surely? I was watching events unfold last night on CNN, and was amazed that the fact that the demonstration was known about in advance didn't appear to warrant any additional security.
If this is typical of security around the Capitol building, it makes you wonder what 20 religious extremists could achieve with a few grenades and a machine gun each.
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macq
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Post by macq on Jan 7, 2021 11:55:01 GMT
There has been some press over the weekend and last few weeks about him stepping down so Pence could take charge and give him a pardon.Maybe a wild plan but either way i guess he may have burnt that bridge yesterday when calling Pence out
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jan 7, 2021 11:59:27 GMT
I was watching events unfold last night on CNN, and was amazed that the fact that the demonstration was known about in advance didn't appear to warrant any additional security.
If this is typical of security around the Capitol building, it makes you wonder what 20 religious extremists could achieve with a few grenades and a machine gun each.
Did you see that footage of the sole cop trying to fend off a dozen protestors on the stairwell? I've seen more security at a Slug and Lettuce on a Tuesday night.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 7, 2021 12:02:22 GMT
There has been some press over the weekend and last few weeks about him stepping down so Pence could take charge and give him a pardon.Maybe a wild plan but either way i guess he may have burnt that bridge yesterday when calling Pence out I thought that all the people Trump has pardoned had been to court and found guilty. Can you pardon somebody for a crime they haven't been found guilty of yet?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 7, 2021 12:05:15 GMT
There has been some press over the weekend and last few weeks about him stepping down so Pence could take charge and give him a pardon.Maybe a wild plan but either way i guess he may have burnt that bridge yesterday when calling Pence out I thought that all the people Trump has pardoned had been to court and found guilty. Can you pardon somebody for a crime they haven't been found guilty of yet? There are no constraints in the Constitution on the Presidential power of pardon. None. There is, however, a statement somewhere else in the Constitution along the lines of "you can't be your own judge", which is why there is talk of legal challenges should Trump issue himself a pardon. Either way it'll end up in the courts. EDIT: The other interesting thing about the pardon is that it presupposes guilt on the part of the person it was given to. That could have implications down the line for other crimes they may have committed, remove their right to plead the 5th, or influence their actions as witness etc.
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macq
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Post by macq on Jan 7, 2021 12:14:23 GMT
There has been some press over the weekend and last few weeks about him stepping down so Pence could take charge and give him a pardon.Maybe a wild plan but either way i guess he may have burnt that bridge yesterday when calling Pence out I thought that all the people Trump has pardoned had been to court and found guilty. Can you pardon somebody for a crime they haven't been found guilty of yet? No expert - but as i understand it a Pardon can only be given for federal crimes and even crimes that are not yet known about but are/were before the date of the pardon.Came up on NBC when they talked about how Nixon was given a blanket pardon for all offences
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macq
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Post by macq on Jan 7, 2021 12:17:35 GMT
I thought that all the people Trump has pardoned had been to court and found guilty. Can you pardon somebody for a crime they haven't been found guilty of yet? There are no constraints in the Constitution on the Presidential power of pardon. None. There is, however, a statement somewhere else in the Constitution along the lines of "you can't be your own judge", which is why there is talk of legal challenges should Trump issue himself a pardon. Either way it'll end up in the courts. EDIT: The other interesting thing about the pardon is that it presupposes guilt on the part of the person it was given to. That could have implications down the line for other crimes they may have committed, remove their right to plead the 5th, or influence their actions as witness etc. Which is why its alleged he wanted the VP to give him the pardon by becoming president if only for a few minutes (but nothing dodgy)
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dovap
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Post by dovap on Jan 7, 2021 12:40:45 GMT
seems a very strange 'power' to have at all - you'd think it would have been removed by now by previous incumbents
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jo
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Post by jo on Jan 7, 2021 12:43:13 GMT
Phew.
I'm just glad that everyone's agreed that riots are bad and that trying to thwart the result of a democratic vote can be dangerous.
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad on Jan 7, 2021 12:47:44 GMT
I hope this person on Twitter is correct in seeing a silver lining -
"While I am no political analyst, the storming of Congress may well signal the decline of Trumpism as an effective force. It has lost its democratic legitimacy and shown an unwillingness to accept the rule of law. Going forward, it may simply be a fringe political movement."
It will be interesting to follow the stances taken by 2024 GOP nominee wannabes.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 7, 2021 12:53:28 GMT
I thought that all the people Trump has pardoned had been to court and found guilty. Can you pardon somebody for a crime they haven't been found guilty of yet? There are no constraints in the Constitution on the Presidential power of pardon. None. There is, however, a statement somewhere else in the Constitution along the lines of "you can't be your own judge", which is why there is talk of legal challenges should Trump issue himself a pardon. Either way it'll end up in the courts. EDIT: The other interesting thing about the pardon is that it presupposes guilt on the part of the person it was given to. That could have implications down the line for other crimes they may have committed, remove their right to plead the 5th, or influence their actions as witness etc. So before he leaves office he can pardon all the people that invaded the Capitol building yesterday, along with all his family and his best mate Rudy?
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macq
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Post by macq on Jan 7, 2021 12:59:46 GMT
I hope this person on Twitter is correct in seeing a silver lining - "While I am no political analyst, the storming of Congress may well signal the decline of Trumpism as an effective force. It has lost its democratic legitimacy and shown an unwillingness to accept the rule of law. Going forward, it may simply be a fringe political movement." It will be interesting to follow the stances taken by 2024 GOP nominee wannabes. or on the other side of the coin the rise of the MAGA party?
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