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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 7, 2021 16:36:45 GMT
I am more inclined to judge Michael Gove by his speech in the HoC on 30th December 2020 and I couldn't care less if his smile looked odd when he was standing next to The Donald. In other news, The Zuck has banned Orange Man probably permanently, not unsurprising perhaps, but regardless of the merits of this action today, it does raise serious questions about the power of unelected Megamen exerting control over the media that press barons of the past could never have dreamt possible. Its 8 minutes long: where do we need to start from to pick up what he has to say about Trump etc. ?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 7, 2021 16:52:41 GMT
What do you mean "what if"...? They're very special and he loves them. I was thinking more along the lines of what if he said "....we need to rise up and defeat these anti democrats.....take to arms and take back what is ours...so great people lets storm the Captiol...and great patriots of america our beautiful security services come with us..." or something like that.... He didn't have to spell it out his supporters knew exactly what he meant and acted accordingly.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jan 7, 2021 17:08:01 GMT
I was thinking more along the lines of what if he said "....we need to rise up and defeat these anti democrats.....take to arms and take back what is ours...so great people lets storm the Captiol...and great patriots of america our beautiful security services come with us..." or something like that.... In that case Pence and other principal officers should have invoked the 25th amendment and stripped Trump of his powers for being unwilling to perform his duties. Something they have in fact been considering already. That is what you think should happen rather than what you think would happen. I agree but that would just be the start. With the amount of guns in people's hands (particularly trump supporters) plus the fact that there are likely sympathies among some/much of the police/home guard etc plus the fact that the election was close-ish (clear cut but close so you have millions unhappy) I suspect we really could see another civil war.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 7, 2021 17:46:45 GMT
In that case Pence and other principal officers should have invoked the 25th amendment and stripped Trump of his powers for being unwilling to perform his duties. Something they have in fact been considering already. That is what you think should happen rather than what you think would happen. I agree but that would just be the start. With the amount of guns in people's hands (particularly trump supporters) plus the fact that there are likely sympathies among some/much of the police/home guard etc plus the fact that the election was close-ish (clear cut but close so you have millions unhappy) I suspect we really could see another civil war. Having just come off the back of reading a biography of Frederick Douglass, a history of the Civil War, and a biography of Ulysses S. Grant, I am completely confident in saying that there won't be another Civil War:- * There's no conflict in terms of Federal overreach / States' rights (which was a fig leaf for continuing the institution of slavery but anyway). * There are no potential flashpoints like Harpers Ferry or Fort Sumpter. * The Federal Government has complete control of all of the military. * There's no secessionist desire. * There's no manifest destiny type expansion to new territories and states (and hence no conflict about the introduction of slavery in those new territories and states). * Perhaps most importantly there's no constituency that would actually raise arms and fight. Though I grant you there's bound to be some crazies willing to do stupid, evil things like the Timothy McVeigh Oklahoma City bombing . I'm far more worried about Trump lashing out in some way, eg at Iran or North Korea. We're in for a difficult year - regardless the US has an awful lot to sort out.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 7, 2021 18:54:31 GMT
In that case Pence and other principal officers should have invoked the 25th amendment and stripped Trump of his powers for being unwilling to perform his duties. Something they have in fact been considering already. That is what you think should happen rather than what you think would happen. I agree but that would just be the start. With the amount of guns in people's hands (particularly trump supporters) plus the fact that there are likely sympathies among some/much of the police/home guard etc plus the fact that the election was close-ish (clear cut but close so you have millions unhappy) I suspect we really could see another civil war. If they discussed invoking the 25th amendment based on what did happen, I do think they would have actually invoked it if Trump went further. Let me try linking to that Sky article again, as it didn't seem to work the first time: news.sky.com/story/what-is-the-25th-amendment-that-could-remove-trump-from-office-before-biden-takes-over-12181256I don't see Trump having nearly enough support to start a civil war. Although it is worrying to see so many people believing in an alternate reality concocted by a megalomaniac.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 7, 2021 19:12:44 GMT
Having just come off the back of reading a biography of Frederick Douglass, a history of the Civil War, and a biography of Ulysses S. Grant, I am completely confident in saying that there won't be another Civil War... I agree 100% with registerme . There will be no Civil War. And that’s said with a high level of confidence off the back of diddly squat reading. I did try googling a robust definition of a civil war, but couldn’t find a succinct, clear definition. Whatever crazy gun-toting, confused right-wing militia sh!t goes down in the short, medium or long-term it won’t be seen as civil war in any historical definition of what constitutes a civil war. I mean with brains trusts like this involved, I'm pretty relaxed about a "civil war". Yup, he wore his word ID around his neck whilst invading the Capitol Building .
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 7, 2021 19:30:16 GMT
Given the amount of cameras around I guess it won't be difficult to identify the main culprits. I wonder if they will just be charged with trespass, or will the authorities be asking for the death penalty for attempted treason?
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jan 7, 2021 19:35:33 GMT
I don't see Trump having nearly enough support to start a civil war. Although it is worrying to see so many people believing in an alternate reality concocted by a megalomaniac. Though when you see this sort of thing, you do start to wonder..45% of Republicans somewhat or strongly support the storming of the Capitol building? wow.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 7, 2021 19:55:04 GMT
Four people died during yesterday's events.
1. Shot by the Secret Service after refusing orders not to scale a barrier, and ignoring a drawn and aimed weapon. 2. One suffered a heart attack after self-tasering. 3. One fell off some scaffolding. 4. One suffered a heart attack after a flash bang went off (I don't know who deployed the flash bang).
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 7, 2021 20:11:13 GMT
Given the amount of cameras around I guess it won't be difficult to identify the main culprits. I wonder if they will just be charged with trespass, or will the authorities be asking for the death penalty for attempted treason? Some of those beards have to be classed as a crime against humanity. One of those beards was wearing a T-shirt with "Camp Auschwitz" on the chest.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 7, 2021 20:16:58 GMT
In that case Pence and other principal officers should have invoked the 25th amendment and stripped Trump of his powers for being unwilling to perform his duties. Something they have in fact been considering already. That is what you think should happen rather than what you think would happen. I agree but that would just be the start. With the amount of guns in people's hands (particularly trump supporters) plus the fact that there are likely sympathies among some/much of the police/home guard etc plus the fact that the election was close-ish (clear cut but close so you have millions unhappy) I suspect we really could see another civil war. I hope the American people are smarter than that. The democratic process has been pretty much completed so that should now go ahead.
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Post by dan1 on Jan 7, 2021 20:31:00 GMT
Four people died during yesterday's events. 1. Shot by the Secret Service after refusing orders not to scale a barrier, and ignoring a drawn and aimed weapon. 2. One suffered a heart attack after self-tasering. 3. One fell off some scaffolding. 4. One suffered a heart attack after a flash bang went off (I don't know who deployed the flash bang). The loss of life is very sad and I say that as someone vehemently opposed to everything that Trump represents. I do want to see criminal charges brought against all of those who committed acts against democracy yesterday. To act as a deterrent and in the knowledge that there are consequences - no one gets to brag about occupying the Senate and getting away with it. The real issue is what happens to Trump. Victors justice* has to be avoided at all costs because somehow Biden + Harris need to begin the process of healing the divisions... whether people like it or not Trump speaks for a significant proportion of the population. And to be clear, I don't think the point about bringing criminal charges above is in conflict with this, I guess that the vast majority of Trump supporters looked on aghast at events yesterday irrespective of what the polls say (assume most would have interpreted the question as "are you with or against Trump?" - tribal). *it's not at all comparable but I'm reminded of the League of Nations subsequent to WWI.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jan 7, 2021 21:46:59 GMT
For the record I don't like Trump much as an individual. At least I think I don't - I haven't met him obviously. I don't like many/most of his policies. Some of his foreign policy was progressive which I liked and I suspect there will be far more deaths around the world with Biden in charge. In particular, I don't recall as many wars recently as there have been in their recent past.
Oh also for the record, I'm as confident as I can be Biden won the election and Trump not agreeing to it is a really bad look for that country.
We jump to attacking the "mob" rule. I think its wrong also. But then we also take sides in places like Hong Kong and call the chaps on the streets something different to a "mob". Earlier it was the "arab spring". Essentially this is all just how you look at things.
I very much dislike what I've heard about the SS shooting dead someone attempting to trespass and/or cause damage to buildings. I don't know what the answer is shooting one guy out of hundreds feels wrong.
I must admit there is something I like (even though its wrong) about seeing those very wealthy politicians come a bit close to life outside their bubble. Real hoards of people trooping down the corridors. Of course we can't have anarchy but from time to time protest and anger spilling over gives those at the top a good kicking.
I also despite despising much of what many of the "mob" stand for and think they should absolutely not be made an example of and charged with treason etc. A: That would be unjust IMO and B: It would definitely not serve to heal wounds but rather radicalise more to their cause.
Oh and for the record, I absolutely hate the kind of ultra right wing, white-rule racist types. So I have nothing much in common with that "mob" my points above would apply to any kind of demo.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 7, 2021 21:58:13 GMT
For the record I don't like Trump much as an individual. At least I think I don't - I haven't met him obviously. I don't like many/most of his policies. Some of his foreign policy was progressive which I liked and I suspect there will be far more deaths around the world with Biden in charge. In particular, I don't recall as many wars recently as there have been in their recent past. Oh also for the record, I'm as confident as I can be Biden won the election and Trump not agreeing to it is a really bad look for that country. We jump to attacking the "mob" rule. I think its wrong also. But then we also take sides in places like Hong Kong and call the chaps on the streets something different to a "mob". Earlier it was the "arab spring". Essentially this is all just how you look at things.I very much dislike what I've heard about the SS shooting dead someone attempting to trespass and/or cause damage to buildings. I don't know what the answer is shooting one guy out of hundreds feels wrong. I must admit there is something I like (even though its wrong) about seeing those very wealthy politicians come a bit close to life outside their bubble. Real hoards of people trooping down the corridors. Of course we can't have anarchy but from time to time protest and anger spilling over gives those at the top a good kicking. I also despite despising much of what many of the "mob" stand for and think they should absolutely not be made an example of and charged with treason etc. A: That would be unjust IMO and B: It would definitely not serve to heal wounds but rather radicalise more to their cause. Oh and for the record, I absolutely hate the kind of ultra right wing, white-rule racist types. So I have nothing much in common with that "mob" my points above would apply to any kind of demo. There is a huge difference: the US is a democracy, whereas Hong Kong and the Arab Countries were not. Sure, if you don't believe democracy matters then you can see equivalence. Otherwise, I don't believe this is "just how you look at things". At all.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jan 7, 2021 22:00:41 GMT
We jump to attacking the "mob" rule. I think its wrong also. But then we also take sides in places like Hong Kong and call the chaps on the streets something different to a "mob". Earlier it was the "arab spring". Essentially this is all just how you look at things. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter. ANC MLK FFI IRA etc etc
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