rscal
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Post by rscal on Apr 9, 2021 11:54:00 GMT
As I understand it. It was a quiet day in the office and Stuart Whosnameis Law decided it was time to spice things up a bit for investors.
So they devised the Ever-so-strainghforward 'non-normal-markets-condition' Access Accounts Withdrawal Fee.
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rscal
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Post by rscal on Apr 9, 2021 11:58:18 GMT
Pretty clear. huh?
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Apr 9, 2021 12:13:47 GMT
I note that there are a couple of references in the text to the Exit accounts, which were flagged a little while ago but whose details we've not AFAIK seen yet.
I guess the basic idea is to try to stop the current default behaviour in the AAs, which is to have everything up for withdrawal all of the time (and then put it back if you feel so inclined, ideally though not recently at a discount).
One of several steps towards the New Normal, whatever that might be.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Apr 9, 2021 12:16:18 GMT
I note that there are a couple of references in the text to the Exit accounts, which were flagged a little while ago but whose details we've not AFAIK seen yet. I guess the basic idea is to try to stop the current default behaviour in the AAs, which is to have everything up for withdrawal all of the time (and then put it back if you feel so inclined, ideally though not recently at a discount). One of several steps towards the New Normal, whatever that might be. See here
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Apr 9, 2021 12:22:39 GMT
what's clear is that they will charging this on the Access accounts, whereas the lender fee was included in the monthly interest. So it's a de facto interest rate cut.
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Post by overthehill on Apr 9, 2021 12:23:02 GMT
that was a plate of tripe ... having said that tripe is a delicacy in some parts of the world.
Just my opinion but I'm winding down my AC loanbook to something trivial. The non-normal-market-conditions had me looking into AC's fees and the loan structures.
I applaud them for being transparent but why did they need a lender fee at all ? Monthly service charges for 'extra monitoring' tripled for many loans I looked at , that gets added to the outstanding loan increasing %LTV. And the loan contracts say all AC fees take priority over lender capital and interest, wow! Also why would the cream borrowers choose AC if there are less onerous cheaper alternatives ? I'm thinking all these extra charges might make troublesome loans more profitable than smooth loans. You see where I'm going. It's lose lose for investors.
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nick
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Post by nick on Apr 9, 2021 13:28:28 GMT
Some concerns:
1. T&C's give them free reign to change the fee level (and pretty much any of the T&C's) as they see fit with the only requirement to provide 30 day notice to affected lenders and only then if they believe it may disadvantage lenders. Fine when things are hunky dory, but a free pass to gouge lenders if the ship sinks (Lendy was a real eye opener!).
2. It appears that the fee is chargeable to lenders for facilitating exit and therefore, notwithstanding that it is charged against interest before the net is credited to lenders, I struggle to see how it can be deductible for income tax purposes (in respect of individuals).
How platforms reacted to changes in market conditions as a result of the pandemic was insightful. Unfortunately, I think AC's response as woeful. It is clear that they had not planned for anything but 'normal market conditions' despite liquidity crunches such as those brought about by the pandemic being completely foreseeable and expected time to time, even if the specific cause itself wasn't. What irritated me most was not the delay/freeze in withdrawals (I understood this always to be a risk), but the way they unilaterally changed the rules without notice. In particular, the way they allocated withdrawals to a fixed amount rather than a pro-rota basis felt complete inequitable and self serving (to keep the many happy to at expense of the few - I'm sure you can detect my bias). To their credit, they did belatedly implement the discount mechanism and pro-rota withdrawals to successfully address liquidity. However, my confidence in the platform yet to recover from their initial actions.
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Apr 9, 2021 13:54:28 GMT
what's clear is that they will charging this on the Access accounts, whereas the lender fee was included in the monthly interest. So it's a de facto interest rate cut. Only for funds in the withdrawal queue. So an alternative way of looking at it is that it's a deterrence to piling all of your funds into the withdrawal queue, when the AAs clearly can't function if everyone is doing that. Without this change, anyone with AA holdings is incentivised to put the whole lot on withdrawal request and then feed any repayments back in, at a discount if possible. This means that AC have very little means of knowing how much of the withdrawal queue is real and how much is just gaming. With this change, if you still want to do the steady withdrawal thing, you would now be better advised to make small withdrawal requests and then to top them up as they get slowly satisfied. Your payouts would be similar but your average withdrawal request and thence this charge would be much lower. Of course, if anyone really does want out then they can either accept the tiny discount or, now, jump into the Exit Account and never come back. Bluffs are now being called.
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Post by Harland Kearney on Apr 9, 2021 13:56:39 GMT
90% of my funds in this platform are sitting in the ISA waiting for a transfer out, the other 10% drawing down out of the 90DAA. I am glad 60 days ago I called it quits because I did not understand the exit or future plans of the access accounts. I now understand it even less!
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ukinvestor
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Post by ukinvestor on Apr 9, 2021 14:19:25 GMT
90% of my funds in this platform are sitting in the ISA waiting for a transfer out, the other 10% drawing down out of the 90DAA. I am glad 60 days ago I called it quits because I did not understand the exit or future plans of the access accounts. I now understand it even less!Indeed. This is getting way too complicated
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Apr 9, 2021 14:28:24 GMT
The announcements strike me a sensible moves towards “reactivating” the Access Accounts as they were conceived originally. By starting to charge a 1%pa fee on queued withdrawals, only those who really wish to withdraw their funds will stay in the queue (rather than many doing so by default). This should see a much faster return to “normal conditions” and facilitate the restart of new lending.
And, by providing a permanent exit option for those who never understood the accounts properly and have been complaining at the prospect of new lending, the rest of AC’s lenders are no longer held back.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Apr 9, 2021 14:52:17 GMT
what's clear is that they will charging this on the Access accounts, whereas the lender fee was included in the monthly interest. So it's a de facto interest rate cut. Only for funds in the withdrawal queue. So an alternative way of looking at it is that it's a deterrence to piling all of your funds into the withdrawal queue, when the AAs clearly can't function if everyone is doing that. Without this change, anyone with AA holdings is incentivised to put the whole lot on withdrawal request and then feed any repayments back in, at a discount if possible. This means that AC have very little means of knowing how much of the withdrawal queue is real and how much is just gaming. With this change, if you still want to do the steady withdrawal thing, you would now be better advised to make small withdrawal requests and then to top them up as they get slowly satisfied. Your payouts would be similar but your average withdrawal request and thence this charge would be much lower. Of course, if anyone really does want out then they can either accept the tiny discount or, now, jump into the Exit Account and never come back. Bluffs are now being called. So it's a de facto interest rate cut when you want to take money out - which is what an "access" account is all about. Withdrawal fees and access really don't go together.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Apr 9, 2021 14:53:30 GMT
The announcements strike me a sensible moves towards “reactivating” the Access Accounts as they were conceived originally. By starting to charge a 1%pa fee on queued withdrawals, only those who really wish to withdraw their funds will stay in the queue (rather than many doing so by default). This should see a much faster return to “normal conditions” and facilitate the restart of new lending. And, by providing a permanent exit option for those who never understood the accounts properly and have been complaining at the prospect of new lending, the rest of AC’s lenders are no longer held back. i.e. it isn't an "access" account anymore. best rename it.
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ptr120
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Post by ptr120 on Apr 9, 2021 15:20:11 GMT
This seems like I'll be paying more in fees than I do today on their reducing lender fee. Don't they also need to give at least 30 days notice of this change?
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Apr 9, 2021 15:25:30 GMT
Only for funds in the withdrawal queue. So an alternative way of looking at it is that it's a deterrence to piling all of your funds into the withdrawal queue, when the AAs clearly can't function if everyone is doing that. Without this change, anyone with AA holdings is incentivised to put the whole lot on withdrawal request and then feed any repayments back in, at a discount if possible. This means that AC have very little means of knowing how much of the withdrawal queue is real and how much is just gaming. With this change, if you still want to do the steady withdrawal thing, you would now be better advised to make small withdrawal requests and then to top them up as they get slowly satisfied. Your payouts would be similar but your average withdrawal request and thence this charge would be much lower. Of course, if anyone really does want out then they can either accept the tiny discount or, now, jump into the Exit Account and never come back. Bluffs are now being called. So it's a de facto interest rate cut when you want to take money out - which is what an "access" account is all about. Withdrawal fees and access really don't go together. I don't think that's fair or accurate. In "normal conditions", should they ever apply again, this fee won't be payable. You put your money up for withdrawal and out it comes, no fee. In conditions of reduced liquidity, you pay a fee if you want to stuff up the queue with withdrawal requests that you know aren't coming any time soon. And in those circumstances only an idiot would put the whole amount of their funds up for withdrawal - you'd put it up in small chunks, as payments are made, which would massively reduce your exposure to the fee. There have been plenty of complaints on this board of AC not having fully thought through how these accounts might function in difficult times, and this is an attempt to work something out. If there isn't enough liquidity to make everyone happy, how exactly are they going to keep the lights on? You certainly don't want, as is the case now, lenders to be motivated to put their whole AA funds up for withdrawal whether they actually want them out or not.
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