adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 21, 2021 17:49:07 GMT
Not sure there's anything amusing at all about that, but... GOOD! They have legal obligations under umpty-seven different maritime treaties and the like, even before you get near basic human decency. Perhaps the Charity should be suing the people smugglers who provided an un-sea worthy craft, poor engine, poor staff and charged top wack. Yeh, I'm fairly sure that's actually against the law... But that doesn't let the governments off the hook from fulfilling all their obligations to save lives in their territorial waters.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 21, 2021 18:10:43 GMT
Perhaps the Charity should be suing the people smugglers who provided an un-sea worthy craft, poor engine, poor staff and charged top wack. Yeh, I'm fairly sure that's actually against the law... But that doesn't let the governments off the hook from fulfilling all their obligations to save lives in their territorial waters. Interesting to muse how far that obligation actually extends upon governments. No question that it exists for passing shipping, but if government had such an obligation, why limit to the Coastguard service - wouldn't the RNLI have been government funded, too, rather than a voluntary organisation? Just a passing thought. As it happens, RNLI and Crisis are my chosen charities this year.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Dec 21, 2021 21:13:54 GMT
As it happens, RNLI and Crisis are my chosen charities this year. Me too. Plus the DEC Afghanistan appeal.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 17:15:26 GMT
Perhaps the Charity should be suing the people smugglers who provided an un-sea worthy craft, poor engine, poor staff and charged top wack. Yeh, I'm fairly sure that's actually against the law... But that doesn't let the governments off the hook from fulfilling all their obligations to save lives in their territorial waters. I understand and I have compassion. But we have been feeding these criminals with loads of money since Merkel invited them to walk to Germany but made them pay people smugglers rather than the cheaper option of hiring Greek ferries (who were literally sat in harbour doing nothing in the midst of a financial crisis). So "we" paid criminals rather than honest people. This continues as we pay French police to scour the beaches of France for dangerous crafts, the smugglers then dig out their boats and let their self loading booty then launch themselves into inhospitable water (the Channel is freezing all year around but especially at this time of year, I know I used to go out in it).
The nonsense of paying criminals is akin to the war on drugs. Charities should focus on the criminals and idiots who have to get to the UK to get their parents/friends off the hook with the criminals back at home.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 22, 2021 17:41:53 GMT
Yeh, I'm fairly sure that's actually against the law... But that doesn't let the governments off the hook from fulfilling all their obligations to save lives in their territorial waters. I understand and I have compassion. But we have been feeding these criminals with loads of money since Merkel invited them to walk to Germany but made them pay people smugglers rather than the cheaper option of hiring Greek ferries (who were literally sat in harbour doing nothing in the midst of a financial crisis). So "we" paid criminals rather than honest people. This continues as we pay French police to scour the beaches of France for dangerous crafts, the smugglers then dig out their boats and let their self loading booty then launch themselves into inhospitable water (the Channel is freezing all year around but especially at this time of year, I know I used to go out in it).
The nonsense of paying criminals is akin to the war on drugs. Charities should focus on the criminals and idiots who have to get to the UK to get their parents/friends off the hook with the criminals back at home.
Well, the only criminals are the people smugglers. www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/FOUR-S25-CASES-Judgment-.pdfAnd, yes, perhaps it would make a lot more sense to provide legitimate routes and remove their trade - as you say, strong parallels with drugs.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 22, 2021 19:52:29 GMT
UK, Japan to co-operate on fighter jet engine technology
Not the content, but rather the juxtaposition of the headline and the photograph. I think if I was a pilot of a 'fighter jet' that would feel a bit like taking a knife tickling stick to a gunfight. ED: Get me a stock photo of a fighter plane, maybe RAF or JAF. Backroom bod: Done. Do you want to review it. ED: Han, of course not. Its just a picture of fighter plane ain't it ? Backroom bod:
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 22, 2021 20:33:19 GMT
I understand and I have compassion. But we have been feeding these criminals with loads of money since Merkel invited them to walk to Germany but made them pay people smugglers rather than the cheaper option of hiring Greek ferries (who were literally sat in harbour doing nothing in the midst of a financial crisis). So "we" paid criminals rather than honest people. This continues as we pay French police to scour the beaches of France for dangerous crafts, the smugglers then dig out their boats and let their self loading booty then launch themselves into inhospitable water (the Channel is freezing all year around but especially at this time of year, I know I used to go out in it). The nonsense of paying criminals is akin to the war on drugs. Charities should focus on the criminals and idiots who have to get to the UK to get their parents/friends off the hook with the criminals back at home.
Well, the only criminals are the people smugglers. I think the illegal immigrants themselves might also be considered criminal, unless the meaning of illegal has changed since I was at school.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 22, 2021 21:59:06 GMT
Well, the only criminals are the people smugglers. I think the illegal immigrants themselves might also be considered criminal, unless the meaning of illegal has changed since I was at school. Did you read that appeal court judgement link? "Illegal immigrant" in this instance is a politicised lie.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 22, 2021 22:33:48 GMT
I think the illegal immigrants themselves might also be considered criminal, unless the meaning of illegal has changed since I was at school. Did you read that appeal court judgement link? "Illegal immigrant" in this instance is a politicised lie. "Politicised lie"? Where do politics come into it? This was a Crown Court judgement. My reading of the judgement is that four boat steerers were found guilty of assisting illegal immigration, pure and simple. So the act of steering people without leave to stay here is illegal. Even the defendants themselves agreed... AND the individuals they were driving were also acting illegally...
And then it all got quashed on a technicality. EDIT: Apparently it's illegal unless your intention is to be intercepted by a UK Border Patrol boat, in which case it suddenly isn't illegal any more. I despair.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Dec 22, 2021 22:41:02 GMT
Testicles
At least one of these was refused asylum in 2 EU Countries, that fits my definition of illegal immigrant, and that of the majority of the public.
Article 31 of the UN Refugee Convention states that refugees cannot be penalised for entering the country illegally to claim asylum if they are “coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened” provided they “present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence”.
IMHO Trying to claim asylum elsewhere and being refused does not fit with Article 31, they are clearly illegal and should be deported whence they came. It may sound heartless but they have not complied with international law.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 23, 2021 9:12:02 GMT
Testicles At least one of these was refused asylum in 2 EU Countries, that fits my definition of illegal immigrant, and that of the majority of the public. But not that of the law. Which is rather more relevant than the manipulated opinion of a bunch of Daily-Mail-Believers. It's very simple: Somebody is in this country legally, no matter how they reached it, while they apply for asylum. If/when their application is refused, then they are no longer here legally, and can be removed from the country - but the only country that has to accept them is their home country, and they cannot be returned there if it is unsafe. There is no legal obligation for anybody to apply to the first safe country they arrive in. This is all enshrined in UN treaties that the UK has been a signatory to since the 1950s, and which all civilised countries in the world are signatory to.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2021 10:33:18 GMT
I think Keith's point is worth repeating with a bold
Article 31 of the UN Refugee Convention states that refugees cannot be penalised for entering the country illegally to claim asylum if they are “coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened” provided they “present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence”.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Dec 23, 2021 10:38:49 GMT
Perhaps we ( the World ) need an island somewhere where the stateless can be placed.
if someone is here illegally and has no right to stay, but can't be sent back to their "home" country they could all be put together and provided with the means to make a basic living.
again I would repeat that Article 31 of the UN Refugee Convention states that refugees cannot be penalised for entering the country illegally to claim asylum if they are “coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened” provided they “present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence”. if they claimed asylum in Greece and Germany and were rejected then they have not "come directly". if the law does not permit us to refuse them asylum then the law is wrong.
I apply the same to Shamina Begum, I agree she has the right to appeal against effectively being made stateless, however she should not be allowed back to the UK to make that appeal as we would not be allowed to remove her if her appeal fails.
My view is simple, if someone is refused asylum for good reasons eg it can be shown they are Economic Migrants rather than true Asylum seekers it MUST be made possible to remove them from the UK otherwise we have uncontrolled immigration. ( If the law doesn't allow it the law needs to be changed). I would say my views on people committing criminal offenses differs from the Government, I believe adults who come here and commit crimes such as major drug dealing , Rape, Murder etc should be deported immediately on completion of their sentence. however someone who comes as a child (under 16) and is then found guilty 20 or more years later should be allowed to stay. Asylum seekers committing and major offence eg the above plus offences of violence etc should also lose the right to asylum and be removed from the UK on completion of the sentence.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 23, 2021 12:52:16 GMT
And what will happen to those that follow the legitimte route, but have their claim rejected? Will they go home quietly, or will they be back in the queue for the next rubber dinghy across the channel?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 23, 2021 12:54:17 GMT
This is more a question of what amused me by not being in the news recently.
What has happened to the insulate britan protestors? Ar they still blocking roads, or did they stop when some of them went to prison.
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