|
Post by martin44 on Jun 21, 2023 21:16:49 GMT
Which of course is perfectly true. Or not as it's largely a myth. His peak popularity was +14, dropping to -45 on departure. Analysis of pollsters on 2019 show much of the 'red wall' result derived from Labour collapse but also an underlying trend of increasing Tory vote that was already underway at happened mostly under May with only a modest further rise under Boris. eg Bolsover where May doubled the vote, Boris only bumped it be a few % & wouldnt have one the seat if the Lab vote hadn't collapsed. Boris needs to be consigned to history ... time for serious politicians ... if we can find anyYes .. maybe a politician that can command an 80 seat majority... starmer you think?
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,329
Likes: 11,549
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 21, 2023 21:38:20 GMT
Or not as it's largely a myth. His peak popularity was +14, dropping to -45 on departure. Analysis of pollsters on 2019 show much of the 'red wall' result derived from Labour collapse but also an underlying trend of increasing Tory vote that was already underway at happened mostly under May with only a modest further rise under Boris. eg Bolsover where May doubled the vote, Boris only bumped it be a few % & wouldnt have one the seat if the Lab vote hadn't collapsed. Boris needs to be consigned to history ... time for serious politicians ... if we can find anyYes .. maybe a politician that can command an 80 seat majority... starmer you think? Certainly not ... I said a serious politician ... not one who expounds an economically illiterate fantasy. You've missed the point ... Boris 80 seat majority was based on Labour collapse & a general trend ... on a get B done whomever was Tory leader would have won. A Labour victory will be based on anti-Tory, anti-SNP vote not anything Starmer does. Starmer can only lose the election, Sunak only win ... like 92.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,329
Likes: 11,549
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 21, 2023 21:58:26 GMT
No drink, no drugs. Not speeding. Just should have slowed down even more due to the sun. Even the victim's mother said she didn't want him overly punished as it was "an accident". And yet, he gets a prison sentence! Given its suspended I suppose at his age if won't affect him much but we don't know that. But he also got an 18 month ban and 200 hours community service. Is there no such thing as an "accident" anymore? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-65977373When you are in charge of something with the potential to kill you have to take the relevant precautions ... so he couldnt see properly, cut a corner and crossed into the central non-highway area hitting the kids. You understand the word accident means unintentional, not deliberate? It is possible for an accident to happen where someone is at fault. They dont intend for something to happen but by their actions they make it more likely. eg if you run through a gallery of vases you are more likely to break one than if you walk.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 21, 2023 22:02:18 GMT
No drink, no drugs. Not speeding. Just should have slowed down even more due to the sun. Even the victim's mother said she didn't want him overly punished as it was "an accident". And yet, he gets a prison sentence! Given its suspended I suppose at his age if won't affect him much but we don't know that. But he also got an 18 month ban and 200 hours community service. Is there no such thing as an "accident" anymore? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-65977373When you are in charge of something with the potential to kill you have to take the relevant precautions ... so he couldnt see properly, cut a corner and crossed into the central non-highway area hitting the kids. You understand the word accident means unintentional, not deliberate? It is possible for an accident to happen where someone is at fault. They dont intend for something to happen but by their actions they make it more likely. eg if you run through a gallery of vases you are more likely to break one than if you walk.Your analogy describes drink driving or drug driving. It does not describe what this person did.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,329
Likes: 11,549
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 21, 2023 22:09:00 GMT
When you are in charge of something with the potential to kill you have to take the relevant precautions ... so he couldnt see properly, cut a corner and crossed into the central non-highway area hitting the kids. You understand the word accident means unintentional, not deliberate? It is possible for an accident to happen where someone is at fault. They dont intend for something to happen but by their actions they make it more likely. eg if you run through a gallery of vases you are more likely to break one than if you walk.Your analogy describes drink driving or drug driving. It does not describe what this person did. Yes it does and he's fully admitted it ... respect to him. Drunk/drugs would imply not being in control of actions and not being able to make a rational decision. Hes come round a bend too fast for the conditions, has left the designated road area and entered the central area where the kids were waiting to cross. Its about adapting to circumstances
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,329
Likes: 11,549
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 21, 2023 22:23:55 GMT
No drink, no drugs. Not speeding. Just should have slowed down even more due to the sun. Even the victim's mother said she didn't want him overly punished as it was "an accident". And yet, he gets a prison sentence! Given its suspended I suppose at his age if won't affect him much but we don't know that. But he also got an 18 month ban and 200 hours community service. Is there no such thing as an "accident" anymore? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-65977373Doesnt say clearly what actually happened.. i suspect the kids were on the road.. PARENTS NOT WATCHING MAYBE? and i agree "accidents happen" seems to not exist anymore... there always seems to be someone to blame. It does. It says they were in the central hatched area ... ie not in the road but waiting between lanes to cross. Perhaps not the most sensible place.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 21, 2023 23:00:00 GMT
Your analogy describes drink driving or drug driving. It does not describe what this person did. Yes it does and he's fully admitted it ... respect to him. Drunk/drugs would imply not being in control of actions and not being able to make a rational decision. Hes come round a bend too fast for the conditions, has left the designated road area and entered the central area where the kids were waiting to cross. Its about adapting to circumstances On what planet does that deserve a prison sentence? He's under the speed limited remember. This is the sort of thing that many of us do time and time again and yet go through our lives not being as extremely unlucky as this guy. Or are you telling me you've never contravened a single Highway Code rule in your life?
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,329
Likes: 11,549
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 22, 2023 0:05:03 GMT
Yes it does and he's fully admitted it ... respect to him. Drunk/drugs would imply not being in control of actions and not being able to make a rational decision. Hes come round a bend too fast for the conditions, has left the designated road area and entered the central area where the kids were waiting to cross. Its about adapting to circumstances On what planet does that deserve a prison sentence? He's under the speed limited remember. This is the sort of thing that many of us do time and time again and yet go through our lives not being as extremely unlucky as this guy. Or are you telling me you've never contravened a single Highway Code rule in your life? The one where that is the sentence for that offence www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/causing-serious-injury-by-careless-or-inconsiderate-driving-for-consultation-only/On what planet do people waiting to cross the road deserve to get series injuries because someone didnt use their common sense? It shouldnt be a question of luck ... So if you were obeying the speed limit of 40mph on a wet or icy road & skidded would you be driving with care? Speed limits are always subject to conditions. If the car in front was only doing 30 & you drove into it would it be relevant you were not speeding. Driving a motor vehicle, no
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Jun 22, 2023 6:50:13 GMT
Yes it does and he's fully admitted it ... respect to him. Drunk/drugs would imply not being in control of actions and not being able to make a rational decision. Hes come round a bend too fast for the conditions, has left the designated road area and entered the central area where the kids were waiting to cross. Its about adapting to circumstances On what planet does that deserve a prison sentence? He's under the speed limited remember. This is the sort of thing that many of us do time and time again and yet go through our lives not being as extremely unlucky as this guy. Or are you telling me you've never contravened a single Highway Code rule in your life? if one is in the habit of frequently driving a vehicle in a way which is unsuitable for the prevailing road conditions, then one should either get retrained or hand in your license. A car is a lethal weapon. Driving is a privilege which is earnt. It is not a right. With it comes responsibilities - legal and moral. He admitted he could not see clearly, and the case was that he had not slowed to a suitable speed. He 'cut the corner' which is the immediate cause of the collision. His prison sentence is suspended. As for "unlucky": that is one side of the coin. The other is that he is lucky that the children weren't killed. As were they. The fact that he wasn't exceeding the speed limit is pretty much irrelevant. If there is ice/snow on the road and you skid across the road and hit somebody while doing 20 mph in a 30mph zone, what relevance is the speed limit ? None. There doesn't have to be 'intent' for there to be responsibility. Is he unfortunate ? He is 'unfortunate' in the sense that he was driving inappropriately and irresponsibly at a point in time and space which resulted in a bad outcome. If people had not been an accident as a consequence, he would have "got away with it". There was, he didn't.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on Jun 22, 2023 8:23:22 GMT
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 4,590
Likes: 2,623
|
Post by keitha on Jun 22, 2023 10:19:52 GMT
On what planet does that deserve a prison sentence? He's under the speed limited remember. This is the sort of thing that many of us do time and time again and yet go through our lives not being as extremely unlucky as this guy. Or are you telling me you've never contravened a single Highway Code rule in your life? if one is in the habit of frequently driving a vehicle in a way which is unsuitable for the prevailing road conditions, then one should either get retrained or hand in your license. A car is a lethal weapon. Driving is a privilege which is earnt. It is not a right. With it comes responsibilities - legal and moral. He admitted he could not see clearly, and the case was that he had not slowed to a suitable speed. He 'cut the corner' which is the immediate cause of the collision. His prison sentence is suspended. As for "unlucky": that is one side of the coin. The other is that he is lucky that the children weren't killed. As were they. The fact that he wasn't exceeding the speed limit is pretty much irrelevant. If there is ice/snow on the road and you skid across the road and hit somebody while doing 20 mph in a 30mph zone, what relevance is the speed limit ? None. There doesn't have to be 'intent' for there to be responsibility. Is he unfortunate ? He is 'unfortunate' in the sense that he was driving inappropriately and irresponsibly at a point in time and space which resulted in a bad outcome. If people had not been an accident as a consequence, he would have "got away with it". There was, he didn't. The speed limit is a maximum, you should always drive to the road conditions, only an idiot drives at 70 on a motorway in thick fog and heavy rain, or drives at 30 past a school at start or end times if the road is covered in ice or snow, indeed I would say at those times even with good conditions 20 is plenty. however compare to www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65379283 33 previous convictions including 3 for driving whilst disqualified, 16 months
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 22, 2023 10:50:56 GMT
On what planet does that deserve a prison sentence? He's under the speed limited remember. This is the sort of thing that many of us do time and time again and yet go through our lives not being as extremely unlucky as this guy. Or are you telling me you've never contravened a single Highway Code rule in your life? The one where that is the sentence for that offence www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/causing-serious-injury-by-careless-or-inconsiderate-driving-for-consultation-only/On what planet do people waiting to cross the road deserve to get series injuries because someone didnt use their common sense? It shouldnt be a question of luck ... So if you were obeying the speed limit of 40mph on a wet or icy road & skidded would you be driving with care? Speed limits are always subject to conditions. If the car in front was only doing 30 & you drove into it would it be relevant you were not speeding. Driving a motor vehicle, no Two problems with that statement: First, they weren't waiting to cross the road - they were in the middle of it. Second, which is my entire point. Just because someone absolutely doesn't deserve something it doesn't mean the other party is 100% to blame. Nothing is ever considered an "accident". Good catch by keith. How can going round a corner slightly incorrectly be compared to running away from the police having already had a big criminal driving record I don't know ?
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,329
Likes: 11,549
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 22, 2023 11:25:21 GMT
Two problems with that statement: First, they weren't waiting to cross the road - they were in the middle of it. Second, which is my entire point. Just because someone absolutely doesn't deserve something it doesn't mean the other party is 100% to blame. Nothing is ever considered an "accident". Good catch by keith. How can going round a corner slightly incorrectly be compared to running away from the police having already had a big criminal driving record I don't know ? In the 'hatched area' ie the area which is not part of the road for driving. I assume had there been a central pavement that would have been OK? What if hed clipped someone in a designated cycle lane only separated by a white line? You still dont understand the meaning of the word accident ie not deliberate, unintentional, it is a word with context and allows for fault. Very little is a pure accident, very little happens without a cause, a lot of stuff is considered an accident Again the law operates within context ... causing serious injury has more legal consequence than just criminal damage & the basic driving offence ... the two offences are part of the same offence bracket so have similar tariffs ... you would need to read the sentencing notes to compare why the sentences were given ... the actor got a lesser sentence.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on Jun 22, 2023 11:31:17 GMT
Many years ago, soon after passing my test, I was driving along a B road in the West Country somewhere. The traffic lights ahead were amber. I accelerated to get through them. I didn't know that there was a dog leg at the traffic lights. I went through the just changing to red lights, and went straight across the road into the right hand lane of the opposing side. Had there been a car there (or a pedestrian crossing) I would have crashed straight into it at 60 miles an hour. It would have been an accident. But it would, absolutely, have been caused by my poor judgement. And I would rightly have been held to account for it. I was very lucky. It scared the out of me.
|
|
Greenwood2
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,385
Likes: 2,784
|
Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 22, 2023 13:28:48 GMT
Car accidents are 99% (or more) accidents, the remainder are deliberates. If I hit another car by accident the rules of the road determine who was at fault and I could be prosecuted. If I hit a pedestrian it will almost certainly be judged my fault unless they threw themselves under the car, I am driving a lethal weapon and if I get it wrong (accidentally) and cause injury or death I will be prosecuted, the punishment will take into account the circumstances (in that case quite lenient). I would also blame myself for life, but the law would still punish me.
|
|