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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 25, 2023 20:28:26 GMT
Show me a country that operates red and green only and I'll show you a country with a far higher accident rate.  There's a good reason we use amber, to prepare drivers for red. Similar system on railways too. No, not red and green only! Countries where red follows green. Can you name a single country that uses that system, where red directly follows green (with no countdown or other signal to forewarn)? That would be scary. The Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals mandates an amber warning in the transition from green to red, and half the world has signed up to that, with good reason. Many other countries adopt the US system, which also transitions green to red via amber, or a hybrid version of the two systems. To use an amber light purely to warn of a transition from red to green, and not use it to signal the far more safety critical transition from green to red, would be sheer madness. Do you know of any country that does this? In France, the lights change directly from red to green, with no amber in between (but they do use amber when changing from green to red). Are you sure you're not muddling up with this system?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 23:23:16 GMT
So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly. Have you considered reading the Highway Code? www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/light-signals-controlling-traffic"AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident"Hardly difficult to understand, is it? No, wait, don't tell me - you read it when you took your test, so you don't need to read it again... I can't resist. Sorry. It was this quote which got me (slightly) interested in the first place. Notwithstanding BB's point about there not being traffic lights in the UK on 60 or even 70 mph roads (there are - another subject) if you are driving at 70 mph and are 1 metre behind the stop line when the lights turn amber, how is "pulling up" going to cause an accident? It doesn't say "emergency stop" it says "pulling up".
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 23:29:23 GMT
No, not red and green only! Countries where red follows green. Can you name a single country that uses that system, where red directly follows green (with no countdown or other signal to forewarn)? That would be scary. The Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals mandates an amber warning in the transition from green to red, and half the world has signed up to that, with good reason. Many other countries adopt the US system, which also transitions green to red via amber, or a hybrid version of the two systems. To use an amber light purely to warn of a transition from red to green, and not use it to signal the far more safety critical transition from green to red, would be sheer madness. Do you know of any country that does this? In France, the lights change directly from red to green, with no amber in between (but they do use amber when changing from green to red). Are you sure you're not muddling up with this system? Probably not Berny. Getting a bit tired (and probably muddled too) to be honest. I know you have an extremely focused, logical mind and have expressed an interest in The Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals (!!) so I would appreciate your comments on this highway code rule that has now been quoted twice. I'm sure we all understand the intent, but it does seem to be phrased such that a legal team would struggle to enforce its meaning.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 26, 2023 5:01:03 GMT
While on the subject, why do we have red/green traffic lights when that is the most common form of colour blindness (5 - 8% of men)?
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 26, 2023 6:42:41 GMT
While on the subject, why do we have red/green traffic lights when that is the most common form of colour blindness (5 - 8% of men)? I thought there wasn't going to be a 'clever' answer. I suspected it was simply propagation of old common practises: Red and green for Off/On for machinery ? [which begs exactly the same question] Howeve, even if that is/was true, there is science between its retention, supposedly. Red has the longest wavelength of visible light (remember ROYGBIV?) and therefore is less prone to "light scattering" in poor conditions (fog/smog etc). As its the 'danger' signal, it makes Red an obvious choice.
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badersleg
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Post by badersleg on Jun 26, 2023 6:47:15 GMT
While on the subject, why do we have red/green traffic lights when that is the most common form of colour blindness (5 - 8% of men)?
It's the position of the bulbs and the sequence of lights that are important. Even if you can't see any colour- if a single lamp goes off and another single lamp comes on you know it's going to be time to stop.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 26, 2023 6:59:29 GMT
While on the subject, why do we have red/green traffic lights when that is the most common form of colour blindness (5 - 8% of men)?
It's the position of the bulbs and the sequence of lights that are important. Even if you can't see any colour- if a single lamp goes off and another single lamp comes on you know it's going to be time to stop.
There is some truth in that, but it isn't the full story. Esp. if one goes beyond roads, or think about emergency lights. I remember my father had a hand held 'signal light' from his days on the railways. It had a single bulb/illumination, and you could change the light filter to change it from red/green/amber. No position change, and no multiple lights. So the red/green issue definitely exists in those situations.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 26, 2023 7:06:05 GMT
And what do you do if there is one light showing as you approach, stop and wait to see what happens next? I guess you can judge the position of the light top or bottom but then sometimes they are horizontal. Glad I'm not colour blind.
Edit: And green and red filter arrows.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 26, 2023 7:41:09 GMT
And what do you do if there is one light showing as you approach, stop and wait to see what happens next? I guess you can judge the position of the light top or bottom but then sometimes they are horizontal. In other countries, but not the UK. And, even then, they're consistently ordered.
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Post by Ace on Jun 26, 2023 8:20:20 GMT
I am red/green colourblind. I don't generally have difficulty with traffic lights, though I probably do look a bit harder for them. I'm not really conscious of whether it's the position or pattern that I'm relying more heavily on than the colour, my brain just seems to know. It's a bit like changing gear, you don't usually consciously think about coordinating the clutch and the gear stick, your brain just does it.
For those that don't realise, being completely red/green colour blind is very rare. For the vast majority, including me, we just need to have more of the colour present or for the two colours to be nearer together for us to be able to see the difference. For instance, my normally signed partner can easily see a red poppy in a green field. Apparently it's blindingly obvious to her. From a distance I can stare all day and never find it. If she walks me up to it I will eventually see it when close enough.
The greater problem with traffic lights for me is when they are surrounded by many other lights. It's difficult for me to spot them. Obviously I can use other clues to conclude that there are likely to be traffic lights around. Again this generally happens subconsciously. I have unwittingly driven through a red light. I was in hamburg at night in a heavily built up area with many flashing lights in appalling weather in a hire car that I wasn't used to, and trying to navigate in a foreign country on the "wrong" side of the road without a satnav. My passenger screamed too late, as he thought it impossible that I wouldn't stop. Presumably, my brain was just too busy processing the other stuff to notice the lights. Luckily, I got away with it.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 26, 2023 9:18:14 GMT
And what do you do if there is one light showing as you approach, stop and wait to see what happens next? I guess you can judge the position of the light top or bottom but then sometimes they are horizontal. Glad I'm not colour blind. Edit: And green and red filter arrows. Luckily the UK doesn't use red (or amber) filter arrows. If you see a filter arrow here, it will be green.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 26, 2023 9:56:00 GMT
And what do you do if there is one light showing as you approach, stop and wait to see what happens next? I guess you can judge the position of the light top or bottom but then sometimes they are horizontal. Glad I'm not colour blind. Edit: And green and red filter arrows. Luckily the UK doesn't use red (or amber) filter arrows. If you see a filter arrow here, it will be green. I've lived in my current house for just shy of twenty years. The nearest traffic lights to me have a (green) filter arrow. Absolutely nobody understands it. Several times an hour you will hear traffic honking at the person sat at the lights instead of proceeding as they should.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 26, 2023 10:30:33 GMT
Can you name a single country that uses that system, where red directly follows green (with no countdown or other signal to forewarn)? That would be scary. The Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals mandates an amber warning in the transition from green to red, and half the world has signed up to that, with good reason. Many other countries adopt the US system, which also transitions green to red via amber, or a hybrid version of the two systems. To use an amber light purely to warn of a transition from red to green, and not use it to signal the far more safety critical transition from green to red, would be sheer madness. Do you know of any country that does this? In France, the lights change directly from red to green, with no amber in between (but they do use amber when changing from green to red). Are you sure you're not muddling up with this system? Probably not Berny. Getting a bit tired (and probably muddled too) to be honest. I know you have an extremely focused, logical mind and have expressed an interest in The Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals (!!) so I would appreciate your comments on this highway code rule that has now been quoted twice. I'm sure we all understand the intent, but it does seem to be phrased such that a legal team would struggle to enforce its meaning. Next year marks my 50th anniversary of driving and in that time I've never had a problem with the amber light warning of a red about to follow. Who else remembers the very persuasive TV adverts "Don't be an amber gambler"? That message has stuck. As has the message when I first learned to drive, that you are expected, and entrusted, to use your own judgement on the road at all times. That "own judgement" message was really hammered into us back then. We didn't have camera enforcement everywhere, so this was the sensible way, give drivers some leeway.... but make certain they know they are absolutely responsible for their actions. It felt satisfying to feel trusted as a responsible driver. Since then, the model has changed to one of routinely lowering speed limits everywhere and enforcing the rules far more rigidly using technology. The idea of using one's own judgement to drive to the road conditions has definitely taken more of a back seat as the years have passed. Consequently it feels much less satisfying as a driver today. But the roads death toll has reduced, so the loss of freedom/driver autonomy is hard to argue against. So, to me, this amber light Highway Code wording falls into the same category. It must be interpreted using one's own judgement - not read through the keen eye of a lawyer trying to find the loopholes! Bear in mind the Highway Code is written such that every road user, including non native-English speakers, needs to comprehend the rules. You would not expect it (nor welcome it!) to be legally watertight in every aspect or it would have to be twenty times the size! The bottom line is, if we "all understand the intent" of the amber signal, as you rightly say, then that's the battle won, isn't it? Job done.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 26, 2023 10:32:46 GMT
Luckily the UK doesn't use red (or amber) filter arrows. If you see a filter arrow here, it will be green. I've lived in my current house for just shy of twenty years. The nearest traffic lights to me have a (green) filter arrow. Absolutely nobody understands it. Several times an hour you will hear traffic honking at the person sat at the lights instead of proceeding as they should. The driving test standard has definitely gone down IMHO.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 26, 2023 10:36:06 GMT
red doesn't always mean stop and wait
In California for example, there are two exceptions to this rule unless otherwise signed. If safe, you are allowed to:
Turn right after coming to a complete stop, and yielding to traffic and pedestrians in your path ( effectively the same as our stop sign )
Make a left turn after coming to a complete stop, but ONLY if turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street. Yield to traffic and pedestrians in your path
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