aju
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Post by aju on Jun 25, 2023 11:47:08 GMT
70 per cent still agree Brexit was the right thing to do"A poll of hundreds of people on a special episode of BBC Question Time found 70 per cent still agreed Brexit was the right thing to do." - Daily Express article on MSN Sadly i'm not sure there were 100's in the audience possibly 200 at best unless it was a poll of all those that applied. Sadly its a bit like watching PM questions every Wednesday a load of old coblers most of the time. Not sure the questions were given much that attention as was shown the way Fiona Bruce had to keep reminding the panel on many occasions. Perhaps she should change places with Lindsay Hoyle or at least ask them if they'd like to go for cup of tea in the green room ... 
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 25, 2023 13:00:27 GMT
Prior to her untimely demise, Nicola Sturgeon said getting 50% of the vote at the next GE would justify another call for an independence referendum. Mindful of the recent plumet in support north of the border for the SNP, current leader Humza Yousaf has lowered the indyref2 bar by saying that winning 50% of the seats would now be adequate.
What a bunch of chancers.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 13:01:02 GMT
Interesting that. What about the third case which is that to pull up might not be possible [due to the limitations of the machine you are driving or your own reaction time.] In this scenario maybe you and your machine shouldn't be on the road? So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 25, 2023 13:14:11 GMT
In this scenario maybe you and your machine shouldn't be on the road? So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly. this - all round - seems like a bit of an argument in a tea cup. "...or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident" If you have insufficient time to stop your vehicle, safely, before the stop line, then you fall into the category that '...to pull up might cause an accident'. Either you can safely stop before the stop line (not in a way that you might lose control of the vehicle or risk the person behind you rear ending you), or you can't. If you can't stop before the stop line then you risk causing an accident: a vehicle that has come to a halt beyond the stop line so that they are stationary in the junction itself self evidently risks causing an accident and therefore would not be required to stop. Whatever words in the h/way code may or may not have changed over the years, the real requirement as far as I know has never changed. Amber means "stop if you are able to", but going through it is not itself an offence. Whereas going through a red light is (since the amber gave you sufficient warning to stop in time without going through the red)..
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 25, 2023 13:14:58 GMT
In this scenario maybe you and your machine shouldn't be on the road? So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly. This really is very simple.
Lets say you are approaching a set of traffic lights, you are travelling within the speed limit and are paying attention to the road ahead of you. If you see the lights turn from green to amber then the length of the amber phase will allow you to either:
- put your foot on the brake and stop before the stop line, or
- carry on at your current speed and pass through the lights while they are still on amber (which is not an offence)
The problem at lights is either that a driver is not paying attention (meaning by the time they see the amber light they can't stop before the light turns to red), or they accelerate trying to get through the lights before they go red.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 15:00:03 GMT
So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly. This really is very simple.
Lets say you are approaching a set of traffic lights, you are travelling within the speed limit and are paying attention to the road ahead of you. If you see the lights turn from green to amber then the length of the amber phase will allow you to either:
- put your foot on the brake and stop before the stop line, or
- carry on at your current speed and pass through the lights while they are still on amber (which is not an offence)
The problem at lights is either that a driver is not paying attention (meaning by the time they see the amber light they can't stop before the light turns to red), or they accelerate trying to get through the lights before they go red.
Its so simple that many other countries don't employ this system precisely because it is NOT simple. Aju kindly reminded us of the HC rule which I'll repeat here: AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.According to that rule you cannot always carry on through the lights as pulling up would not necessarily mean causing an accident particularly in the case I gave where if you did stop you'd stop the other side of the lights.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 15:02:59 GMT
So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly. this - all round - seems like a bit of an argument in a tea cup. "...or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident" If you have insufficient time to stop your vehicle, safely, before the stop line, then you fall into the category that '...to pull up might cause an accident'. Either you can safely stop before the stop line (not in a way that you might lose control of the vehicle or risk the person behind you rear ending you), or you can't. If you can't stop before the stop line then you risk causing an accident: a vehicle that has come to a halt beyond the stop line so that they are stationary in the junction itself self evidently risks causing an accident and therefore would not be required to stop. Whatever words in the h/way code may or may not have changed over the years, the real requirement as far as I know has never changed. Amber means "stop if you are able to", but going through it is not itself an offence. Whereas going through a red light is (since the amber gave you sufficient warning to stop in time without going through the red).. Not if initiating the stop straight away thus causing you to stop well to other other side of the lights. More relevant on fast roads I admit. I also admit its definitely an argument for the sake of it but what better to do on a Sunday afternoon?
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 25, 2023 15:08:26 GMT
This really is very simple.
Lets say you are approaching a set of traffic lights, you are travelling within the speed limit and are paying attention to the road ahead of you. If you see the lights turn from green to amber then the length of the amber phase will allow you to either:
- put your foot on the brake and stop before the stop line, or
- carry on at your current speed and pass through the lights while they are still on amber (which is not an offence)
The problem at lights is either that a driver is not paying attention (meaning by the time they see the amber light they can't stop before the light turns to red), or they accelerate trying to get through the lights before they go red.
Its so simple that many other countries don't employ this system precisely because it is NOT simple. Aju kindly reminded us of the HC rule which I'll repeat here: AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.According to that rule you cannot always carry on through the lights as pulling up would not necessarily mean causing an accident particularly in the case I gave where if you did stop you'd stop the other side of the lights.and you don't think that stopping your vehicle on the other side of the lights i.e. stuck out in the middle of the junction, de facto with traffic from other directions about to enter it, " might cause an accident" ? I think I and 99.99999% of the rest of the UK driving population are quite happy, should we ever need to, to argue the case that bringing our vehicle to a stop in the middle of a junction does not constitute safe driving and therefore we have perfectly good grounds for having gone through the amber signal when there was insufficient time to pull up before the stop line.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 15:57:02 GMT
Its so simple that many other countries don't employ this system precisely because it is NOT simple. Aju kindly reminded us of the HC rule which I'll repeat here: AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.According to that rule you cannot always carry on through the lights as pulling up would not necessarily mean causing an accident particularly in the case I gave where if you did stop you'd stop the other side of the lights.and you don't think that stopping your vehicle on the other side of the lights i.e. stuck out in the middle of the junction, de facto with traffic from other directions about to enter it, " might cause an accident" ? I think I and 99.99999% of the rest of the UK driving population are quite happy, should we ever need to, to argue the case that bringing our vehicle to a stop in the middle of a junction does not constitute safe driving and therefore we have perfectly good grounds for having gone through the amber signal when there was insufficient time to pull up before the stop line. UK stopping distances are over 300 feet at 70 or 240 at 60mph. That would take you well past the junction. I also repeat the point that hasn't been addressed that many, many other countries go from green straight to red. The reason for this is to acknowledge the confusion that arises when you have an amber moment (if amber means stop, then show red instead). I believe that is proof in itself that our system is not blindingly obvious.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 25, 2023 16:37:01 GMT
and you don't think that stopping your vehicle on the other side of the lights i.e. stuck out in the middle of the junction, de facto with traffic from other directions about to enter it, " might cause an accident" ? I think I and 99.99999% of the rest of the UK driving population are quite happy, should we ever need to, to argue the case that bringing our vehicle to a stop in the middle of a junction does not constitute safe driving and therefore we have perfectly good grounds for having gone through the amber signal when there was insufficient time to pull up before the stop line. UK stopping distances are over 300 feet at 70 or 240 at 60mph. That would take you well past the junction. I also repeat the point that hasn't been addressed that many, many other countries go from green straight to red. The reason for this is to acknowledge the confusion that arises when you have an amber moment (if amber means stop, then show red instead). I believe that is proof in itself that our system is not blindingly obvious. Show me a country that operates red and green only and I'll show you a country with a far higher accident rate.  There's a good reason we use amber, to prepare drivers for red. Similar system on railways too.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 25, 2023 16:46:16 GMT
this - all round - seems like a bit of an argument in a tea cup. "...or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident" If you have insufficient time to stop your vehicle, safely, before the stop line, then you fall into the category that '...to pull up might cause an accident'. Either you can safely stop before the stop line (not in a way that you might lose control of the vehicle or risk the person behind you rear ending you), or you can't. If you can't stop before the stop line then you risk causing an accident: a vehicle that has come to a halt beyond the stop line so that they are stationary in the junction itself self evidently risks causing an accident and therefore would not be required to stop. Whatever words in the h/way code may or may not have changed over the years, the real requirement as far as I know has never changed. Amber means "stop if you are able to", but going through it is not itself an offence. Whereas going through a red light is (since the amber gave you sufficient warning to stop in time without going through the red).. Not if initiating the stop straight away thus causing you to stop well to other other side of the lights. More relevant on fast roads I admit. I also admit its definitely an argument for the sake of it but what better to do on a Sunday afternoon? I can think of lots of things I could be doing on a Sunday afternoon...actually we;ve just been....no lets not go there. But on a serious note. As the driver, you can make the judgement on whether you will be able to stop. If you can't, you don't. The amber lights will be on for sufficiently long that if you are within a stopping distance for the road speed, you will be able to stop, and if you are too close you have time to go through. Remember also the point about general driver responsibility. In the UK, you WILL have warning signs before you get to the traffic lights. They are there to inform and warn. Not just to pay attention / look out for them, but under the general responsibility to drive appropriately, to consider reducing your speed to take account of the fact the lights might change as you approach. Speed limits are maximums, not requirements. (but we've been there recently). What is also interesting, and something I simply do not have an answer for: do you actually ever get lights in a 50mph section, or is it common/normal to in fact put a lower speed limit zone in around the junction.. I've never really looked at for it, but I can think of lots of places where the speed is reduced, I just don't know whether that is the norm. Regardless, the advance warning of upcoming TLs does put some onus on drivers to reduce speed if appropriate. EDIT: As to the 70 mph etc comment. Show me a road where there are traffic lights within a 70 mph road section. Likewise 60. They may exist, but I'm not convinced.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2023 17:22:02 GMT
UK stopping distances are over 300 feet at 70 or 240 at 60mph. That would take you well past the junction. I also repeat the point that hasn't been addressed that many, many other countries go from green straight to red. The reason for this is to acknowledge the confusion that arises when you have an amber moment (if amber means stop, then show red instead). I believe that is proof in itself that our system is not blindingly obvious. Show me a country that operates red and green only and I'll show you a country with a far higher accident rate. There's a good reason we use amber, to prepare drivers for red. Similar system on railways too. No, not red and green only! Countries where red follows green. They still have an amber light e.g. to go from red to amber or red/amber. Anyone as fascinated as I am by the international signalling variations can find a lot of enthralling detail here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_in_traffic_light_operationI think I've had enough of this one!
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 25, 2023 17:37:25 GMT
Really simple if you cross the lights on green good. If you cross the lights on red bad. If you cross the lights on amber OK. If you chance it on amber and end up crossing on red bad.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 25, 2023 18:05:55 GMT
Its so simple that many other countries don't employ this system precisely because it is NOT simple. Aju kindly reminded us of the HC rule which I'll repeat here: AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.According to that rule you cannot always carry on through the lights as pulling up would not necessarily mean causing an accident particularly in the case I gave where if you did stop you'd stop the other side of the lights. The fact that other countries do things differently doesn't mean that they are right and we are wrong. I've been in countries where there are no priority rules for vehicles entering a roundabout (it was chaos, but the locatls appered happy with it) and where driving the wrong way down a dual carriageway was acceptable if there was a blockage on the carriageway you are using.
In relation to the amber light, the rules are simple if you bother to read them. If the lights turn to amber you can drive through the stop line if you are so close that to pull up might cause an accident. Please note that the caveat is that you might cause an accident, not that you will cause an accident, so when the light turns amber you don't need to carry out a formal risk assessment before deciding whether you can cross the stop line. It is common sense that if you carry out an emergency stop as soon as the lights change, there is a good chance somebody will run in the back of you.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 25, 2023 19:50:39 GMT
In this scenario maybe you and your machine shouldn't be on the road? So you're driving 50 in a 50 and 1 Metre before you get to the stop line the lights go orange. You cannot stop the vehicle that quickly. Have you considered reading the Highway Code? www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/light-signals-controlling-traffic"AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident"Hardly difficult to understand, is it? No, wait, don't tell me - you read it when you took your test, so you don't need to read it again...
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