registerme
Member of DD Central
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Post by registerme on Jun 14, 2022 10:03:05 GMT
Bought oven gloves that say on the instructions 'keep away from heat', What! My oven gloves say "Prick with fork", which seems appropriate.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 14, 2022 10:48:23 GMT
But is there not also a possibility that being dropped into a "lower standard" school at 11 means those children get the not as great teachers. More than a possibility, I would suggest it's today's reality for the great majority of kids in the state sector, sadly. Agreed.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 14, 2022 15:09:07 GMT
Todays Springwatch - with Chris Packham declaring how he is using an*l fluid to fart bubbles in Michalea Strachans face !!!! God I missed that: maybe not watched that episode yet. He's getting a bit close to the edge for primetime: the other day when Michalea went up a ladder pretending to be a toad, he made a pretty racy comment about the view he had from ground level.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 14, 2022 15:28:29 GMT
But is there not also a possibility that being dropped into a "lower standard" school at 11 means those children get the not as great teachers.
I passed the 11 plus, 99% of the kids in the grammar school were motivated to succeed, however some in the Secondary modern that were in the "just failed" group were demotivated to continue learning, they also tended to have disruptive kids in the class.Oddly though I still favour Grammar schools or an equivalent for brighter kids, one on my friends who failed the 11 plus was bullied mercilessly because he studied hard at the secondary modern. Not only might they get 'not so good teachers' but perhaps more importantly the 11 plus system means people get dropped into a school system that has lower expectations of them from an academic perspective. If you are bright or have bright kids - or are "middle class" (in terms of aspirational outlook) and give your kids a better start than others of similar level of "intelligence" - the grammar school system is no doubt attractive. However if you fail that singular hurdle and get dropped into a system which has lower expectations of you and gives you less opportunity to learn and grow, and where you are just muddled in with kids of poor behaviour and even lower expectations, then its an early sentence to likely poorer life outcomes. There are no easy solutions to giving the best opportunities to all, but on balance I think the Grammar school/Secondary Modern approach is an all too easy cop out which on the whole amplifies even further the better opportunities children of 'middle class' * families, and particularly the brightest of, get. My eldest sibling went to Grammar school. The next up went to Secondary Modern. I went to comprehensive 'cos the system changed by then: it was the former 'secondary modern' my middle sibling went to. Luckily it was quite forward thinking, and my middle sibling managed to do all O Levels rather than CSEs even though it was a sec. modern. I think that was not terribly common. It was also relatively large for those days, and certainly when it turned comp. it had a policy of streaming which I therefore benefitted from (2 high performing classes in the year). It also had some very good teachers. But many sec. moderns (as it had been) were not like that and were almost dumping grounds. I can't say I'm in favour of 11 plus/Grammar-Sec Mod approach.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 14, 2022 16:07:45 GMT
But is there not also a possibility that being dropped into a "lower standard" school at 11 means those children get the not as great teachers.
I passed the 11 plus, 99% of the kids in the grammar school were motivated to succeed, however some in the Secondary modern that were in the "just failed" group were demotivated to continue learning, they also tended to have disruptive kids in the class.Oddly though I still favour Grammar schools or an equivalent for brighter kids, one on my friends who failed the 11 plus was bullied mercilessly because he studied hard at the secondary modern. Not only might they get 'not so good teachers' but perhaps more importantly the 11 plus system means people get dropped into a school system that has lower expectations of them from an academic perspective. If you are bright or have bright kids - or are "middle class" (in terms of aspirational outlook) and give your kids a better start than others of similar level of "intelligence" - the grammar school system is no doubt attractive. However if you fail that singular hurdle and get dropped into a system which has lower expectations of you and gives you less opportunity to learn and grow, and where you are just muddled in with kids of poor behaviour and even lower expectations, then its an early sentence to likely poorer life outcomes. There are no easy solutions to giving the best opportunities to all, but on balance I think the Grammar school/Secondary Modern approach is an all too easy cop out which on the whole amplifies even further the better opportunities children of 'middle class' * families, and particularly the brightest of, get. My eldest sibling went to Grammar school. The next up went to Secondary Modern. I went to comprehensive 'cos the system changed by then: it was the former 'secondary modern' my middle sibling went to. Luckily it was quite forward thinking, and my middle sibling managed to do all O Levels rather than CSEs even though it was a sec. modern. I think that was not terribly common. It was also relatively large for those days, and certainly when it turned comp. it had a policy of streaming which I therefore benefitted from (2 high performing classes in the year). It also had some very good teachers. But many sec. moderns (as it had been) were not like that and were almost dumping grounds. I can't say I'm in favour of 11 plus/Grammar-Sec Mod approach. You admit you benefitted from streaming though. Grammar schools were just another form of streaming. What was wrong was that some Comps/Sec Mods were allowed to under-perform and ended up like you say. BTW, forget the stuff about middle class children. I was one of a few working class council estate kids at my Grammar. My dad was a milkman at the time. I acknowledge it wasn't a perfect system, but Grammar gave me such a leg up in life. It's very sad to know that others behind me were robbed of that opportunity.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 14, 2022 16:22:46 GMT
I acknowledge it wasn't a perfect system, but Grammar gave me such a leg up in life. It's very sad to know that others behind me were robbed of that opportunity. Or did removal of the 11+ simply stop half of kids being written off at such an early stage?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 14, 2022 16:31:02 GMT
New Zealand score 553 in the first innings of the second test, but still end up losing.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 14, 2022 16:32:27 GMT
New Zealand score 553 in the first innings of the second test, but still end up losing. Oh you complete git, been avoiding any info all day so I can watch the highlights  even been humming when the sports news came on in the other room 
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agent69
Member of DD Central
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Post by agent69 on Jun 14, 2022 16:50:13 GMT
New Zealand score 553 in the first innings of the second test, but still end up losing. Oh you complete git, been avoiding any info all day so I can watch the highlights even been humming when the sports news came on in the other room But at least you know now that the highlights are worth watching.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 14, 2022 17:17:49 GMT
I acknowledge it wasn't a perfect system, but Grammar gave me such a leg up in life. It's very sad to know that others behind me were robbed of that opportunity. Or did removal of the 11+ simply stop half of kids being written off at such an early stage? Yes, back in the day kids with dyslexia could easily get written off at 11+ because their written English was so bad, it could even affect maths sixes and nines look the same and fives can look the same as an 'S', many children grow out of it (learn whole words and letters in context, etc) but at that age maybe not there yet.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 14, 2022 18:20:34 GMT
Not only might they get 'not so good teachers' but perhaps more importantly the 11 plus system means people get dropped into a school system that has lower expectations of them from an academic perspective. If you are bright or have bright kids - or are "middle class" (in terms of aspirational outlook) and give your kids a better start than others of similar level of "intelligence" - the grammar school system is no doubt attractive. However if you fail that singular hurdle and get dropped into a system which has lower expectations of you and gives you less opportunity to learn and grow, and where you are just muddled in with kids of poor behaviour and even lower expectations, then its an early sentence to likely poorer life outcomes. There are no easy solutions to giving the best opportunities to all, but on balance I think the Grammar school/Secondary Modern approach is an all too easy cop out which on the whole amplifies even further the better opportunities children of 'middle class' * families, and particularly the brightest of, get. My eldest sibling went to Grammar school. The next up went to Secondary Modern. I went to comprehensive 'cos the system changed by then: it was the former 'secondary modern' my middle sibling went to. Luckily it was quite forward thinking, and my middle sibling managed to do all O Levels rather than CSEs even though it was a sec. modern. I think that was not terribly common. It was also relatively large for those days, and certainly when it turned comp. it had a policy of streaming which I therefore benefitted from (2 high performing classes in the year). It also had some very good teachers. But many sec. moderns (as it had been) were not like that and were almost dumping grounds. I can't say I'm in favour of 11 plus/Grammar-Sec Mod approach. You admit you benefitted from streaming though. Grammar schools were just another form of streaming. What was wrong was that some Comps/Sec Mods were allowed to under-perform and ended up like you say. BTW, forget the stuff about middle class children. I was one of a few working class council estate kids at my Grammar. My dad was a milkman at the time. I acknowledge it wasn't a perfect system, but Grammar gave me such a leg up in life. It's very sad to know that others behind me were robbed of that opportunity.No, don't forget the stuff about middle class children - don't forget 'the exception proofs the rule'. The point is not that some 'council estate kids got to grammar school', of course they did as they weren't excluded. But even today, perhaps even more so today, your social background (which is much more than 'earnings' its about family outlook, aspirations etc) is a massive influence and indicator of educational success. If your parents aren't making you read, and not reading you stories, for example, your far less likely to have good educational outcomes. That doesn't mane that NO kids from s**t backgrounds got to grammar. It did mean your chances of doing so were significantly less. yes grammar was a form of streaming. Of course it was. But a very severe one that labelled you at a young age, and dumped you into an entire school of 'those that failed their 11 plus'. Its likewise very sad to know that many many others got worse access to decent education as a result of a system that gave you a leg up.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jun 14, 2022 19:19:45 GMT
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 14, 2022 19:21:32 GMT
You admit you benefitted from streaming though. Grammar schools were just another form of streaming. What was wrong was that some Comps/Sec Mods were allowed to under-perform and ended up like you say. BTW, forget the stuff about middle class children. I was one of a few working class council estate kids at my Grammar. My dad was a milkman at the time. I acknowledge it wasn't a perfect system, but Grammar gave me such a leg up in life. It's very sad to know that others behind me were robbed of that opportunity. But even today, perhaps even more so today, your social background (which is much more than 'earnings' its about family outlook, aspirations etc) is a massive influence and indicator of educational success. If your parents aren't making you read, and not reading you stories, for example, your far less likely to have good educational outcomes. I agree entirely. If the parents can't be bothered to foster their offspring's pre-school learning, they are pretty much bound to do worse than kids whose parents are responsible. I'm not sure where the school comes into that or indeed that any school is equipped to overcome that irresponsible start. We can't blame the existence of grammar schools for bad parenting. That's a bit strong. I've always felt that by peeling off the brightest kids to grammars, that enabled the remaining schools to target their education to a narrower band of children and a narrower band of needs. Therefore any particular child would receive a curriculum more appropriate to themselves. For example, teaching Latin to the less intelligent/less receptive kids would be a waste of time, so let the grammars do that, where the kids will lap it up. That means one less subject requiring teaching at the secondary modern/comprehensive, allowing perhaps French or Spanish to fill the gap. Thus a more targeted approach for those kids. Nobody deserves to be left behind and nobody should be left behind this way. I would suggest that educational standards for all have fallen since the demise of grammar schools. Which is why most kids leaving school now don't know the difference between "your" and "you're"...and care even less.
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jun 14, 2022 19:25:01 GMT
the misuse of "our" and "are"
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 14, 2022 19:30:18 GMT
the misuse of "our" and "are" My dad, whose education finished abruptly when he was bombed out of school at 14, 'would of' known the difference.
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even been humming when the sports news came on in the other room 