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Post by valueinvestor123 on Jan 6, 2015 16:19:33 GMT
Is there any difference between the two? (Apart from SS being somewhat larger.) I wonder if you have an account with one, whether it's worth opening account with the other, if it's pretty much the same thing.
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ramblin rose
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Post by ramblin rose on Jan 6, 2015 16:30:09 GMT
Quite a big difference actually. With FS your money is at risk on each and every individual loan you make. With SS, as things stand currently, your money is only notionally tied to the loans you choose to invest in and is in fact lent to Lendy Ltd. So, you need to assess the total with SS as a single loan. They are in the process of changing this, although we don't yet know the details of how.
Next biggest difference is that SS has a very active secondary market, so you can re-distribute the money across different loans or withdraw it essentially when you want. FS has no secondary market, so you are tied into each loan until it ends, and that can be quite a while after the loan term ends if it defaults and the security needs to be sold.
A third big difference is that SS is only doing property bridging loans and are running down the only other asset class they loaned against (boats) with the exception of a single car loan. FS loans against many items from small jewellery, through boats, cars, art collections, musical instruments, etc, etc, etc.
Lots of other smaller differences too. Basically, very different animals, as far as I'm concerned.
They are two different platforms. If you want to spread your risk more, then you would want to have two different accounts with two different platforms, if you felt that they were similar.
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Post by westcountryfunder on Jan 6, 2015 16:51:43 GMT
I think maybe what you say about SS is a bit extreme. Yes, for each individual proposition you do lend your money to Lendy Ltd, but in practice it is difficult to see how you could lose money on more than one proposition at a time. Unless, that is, you really do think that such event(s) would bring the whole edifice crashing down. Theoretically what you say is true, but personally I am not too concerned especially as we are told changes are afoot.
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ramblin rose
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Post by ramblin rose on Jan 6, 2015 17:13:21 GMT
I think maybe what you say about SS is a bit extreme. Yes, for each individual proposition you do lend your money to Lendy Ltd, but in practice it is difficult to see how you could lose money on more than one proposition at a time. Unless, that is, you really do think that such event(s) would bring the whole edifice crashing down. Theoretically what you say is true, but personally I am not too concerned especially as we are told changes are afoot. Neither am I concerned, personally. Just mindful of that being the case. Others are concerned by it, though, and it's important that new lenders are aware, just in case it would concern them. edit: just for the sake of transparency, I have been a very active lender with both platforms ever since they each launched, and am a big fan of both.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Jan 6, 2015 23:07:49 GMT
Thanks for replies. That does concern me. One is effectively exposed to one entity (no matter how many sub-loans, only one thing needs to go very wrong and then all loans will be affected). Surprised they decided to go for this model.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Jan 7, 2015 1:01:38 GMT
Thanks for replies. That does concern me. One is effectively exposed to one entity (no matter how many sub-loans, only one thing needs to go very wrong and then all loans will be affected). Surprised they decided to go for this model. I think it's just the way SS evolved. SS is effectively an offshoot from Lendy and AIUI it was a way for loans to continue to be funded. Whether that was because Lendy had too many loans I don't think we will ever know for sure. In the early days though SS did take a fair amount of flak around this forum especially regarding their T's&C's. Apart from the odd large boat loan, these (smaller boat loans) AFAIK will probably now revert to Lendy with SS concentrating on the larger entities, mainly BL's. The only potential problem is that there is no clear distinction about lender security. Something that SS has assured everyone will be sorted - hopefully sooner rather than later. In the case of FS it is far simpler and all loans are 'tied' to an asset. They started very slowly with little available but have gradually developed and are now entering into larger loans. As an aside although I am not aware of the background, I sometimes think both FS and SS are starting to eat some of AC's lunch.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jan 7, 2015 10:10:22 GMT
I sometimes think both FS and SS are starting to eat some of AC's lunch. Both FS and SS have had more of my money since AC’s website relaunch debacle.
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Jan 7, 2015 10:29:37 GMT
I am also a fan of both and have diverted material funds (in my world) from AC towards them. My only real concern has been the significant swerve from both into large PBL's which has not helped with diversification.I think this may be a limiting factor for me going forward.
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merlin
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Post by merlin on Jan 7, 2015 11:49:47 GMT
I am also a fan of both and have diverted material funds (in my world) from AC towards them. My only real concern has been the significant swerve from both into large PBL's which has not helped with diversification.I think this may be a limiting factor for me going forward. My sentiments entirely. A further worry is that neither of these businesses appear (at a surface level at least) to have much "in depth" of experience with dealing with PBL's or indeed have the specialist staff to deal with defaulters in this area. If they have perhaps they would respond appropriately to this post and allay any fears we may have. Again valuations need to be backed up by professionally qualified assessors/valuers, preferable of the RICS variety otherwise the LTV's are not worth the paper they a written on.
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ramblin rose
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Post by ramblin rose on Jan 7, 2015 13:45:27 GMT
I am also a fan of both and have diverted material funds (in my world) from AC towards them. My only real concern has been the significant swerve from both into large PBL's which has not helped with diversification.I think this may be a limiting factor for me going forward. My sentiments entirely. A further worry is that neither of these businesses appear (at a surface level at least) to have much "in depth" of experience with dealing with PBL's or indeed have the specialist staff to deal with defaulters in this area. If they have perhaps they would respond appropriately to this post and allay any fears we may have. Again valuations need to be backed up by professionally qualified assessors/valuers, preferable of the RICS variety otherwise the LTV's are not worth the paper they a written on. Can't quote you where and when I read it, but I'm pretty certain that SS do have prior experience in the PBL field - perhaps they confirmed this for us when they started with them. However, I know for certain I've never read anything along those lines for FS, which is one of the reasons I don't lend on FS PBLs.
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 7, 2015 14:06:46 GMT
My sentiments entirely. A further worry is that neither of these businesses appear (at a surface level at least) to have much "in depth" of experience with dealing with PBL's or indeed have the specialist staff to deal with defaulters in this area. If they have perhaps they would respond appropriately to this post and allay any fears we may have. Again valuations need to be backed up by professionally qualified assessors/valuers, preferable of the RICS variety otherwise the LTV's are not worth the paper they a written on. Can't quote you where and when I read it, but I'm pretty certain that SS do have prior experience in the PBL field - perhaps they confirmed this for us when they started with them. However, I know for certain I've never read anything along those lines for FS, which is one of the reasons I don't lend on FS PBLs. Possibly this post from last March: "One of our directors has had an extensive career in the property finance market with positions at Barclays Bank Plc, United Trust Bank (development and bridging) and in the Middle East where he headed up Ahli United Banks London property investment team as senior mortgage officer in Bahrain.
Both our directors are property investors in their own right and have the support of many seasoned consultants and professionals to call upon for each deal, plus the chosen law firm also specialises in bridging loans."
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ramblin rose
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Post by ramblin rose on Jan 7, 2015 14:35:40 GMT
Can't quote you where and when I read it, but I'm pretty certain that SS do have prior experience in the PBL field - perhaps they confirmed this for us when they started with them. However, I know for certain I've never read anything along those lines for FS, which is one of the reasons I don't lend on FS PBLs. Possibly this post from last March: "One of our directors has had an extensive career in the property finance market with positions at Barclays Bank Plc, United Trust Bank (development and bridging) and in the Middle East where he headed up Ahli United Banks London property investment team as senior mortgage officer in Bahrain.
Both our directors are property investors in their own right and have the support of many seasoned consultants and professionals to call upon for each deal, plus the chosen law firm also specialises in bridging loans."That will have been it, thank you
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merlin
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Post by merlin on Jan 7, 2015 17:41:10 GMT
Possibly this post from last March: "One of our directors has had an extensive career in the property finance market with positions at Barclays Bank Plc, United Trust Bank (development and bridging) and in the Middle East where he headed up Ahli United Banks London property investment team as senior mortgage officer in Bahrain.
Both our directors are property investors in their own right and have the support of many seasoned consultants and professionals to call upon for each deal, plus the chosen law firm also specialises in bridging loans."That will have been it, thank you However does not mention "recoveries expert". I too am an investor in property but am not by any stretch of the imagination a recoveries expert.
AC on the other-hand have always trumpeted the skills and experience that they claim they are able to deploy when things go wrong. Currently they are being tested on seven loans all of which I have invested in, so I am more than casually interested in finding out if their CV's stand up.
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Post by sammy on Jan 7, 2015 18:26:55 GMT
Thanks for replies. That does concern me. One is effectively exposed to one entity (no matter how many sub-loans, only one thing needs to go very wrong and then all loans will be affected). Surprised they decided to go for this model. Quite correct and has been a major issue with myself and others for quite a while. Certain investors are fully aware of what this means, but it would appear many seem to be oblivious that the danger of the way SS is currently run, is all your eggs are in the one proverbial basket! As I have previously mentioned on this forum, as it stands the basis on how SS is set up is no different to any savings bank etc, apart from a better rate of interest, it is not actually P2P lending as such as we are all lending to just one Lender, "Lendy" who in turn then lends the monies onwards! Plus how many banks etc have gone to the wall for one reason or another and everyone is tied in with whatever losses there are, even if their own particular investments have been doing well. Also please note, these Insitutions, will have had far more stringent rules from various bodies than SS currently have and it didn't stop them from going under!!! Remember its just not investments going bad, Fidelity/Fraud, often plays a major part. With more and more property deals coming onboard, many quite large, the actual overall risk becomes greater not smaller, unlike the original boats and smaller property deals, where the overall risk was less. Lets hope SS sort this out A.S.A.P. as they have sort of implied and just don't let it run on & on in 2015. Also just setting up a Trust won't necessary solve the actual issue, it could just mean the Trust running the one overall large basket, rather than Lendy! As SS have informed us, even on this forum, they have had consultations with various Companies about this complex issue and if it had been something easy to set up, SS would have done it ages ago!
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 7, 2015 19:48:32 GMT
However does not mention "recoveries expert".
AC on the other-hand have always trumpeted the skills and experience that they claim they are able to deploy when things go wrong. Currently they are being tested on seven loans all of which I have invested in, so I am more than casually interested in finding out if their CV's stand up.
Only seven?? I've just taken a look at AC's list of active loans and see about twice that many which either have not paid back at the expected maturity, or are seriously behind in their repayments.
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