tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on Feb 18, 2022 17:02:32 GMT
Gordon Brown let the housing market rise irresponsibly because it encouraged people to spend their apparent profits to make the economy look good. Unfortunately no Chancellor has since put the brakes on by restricting mortgages, so there is nothing the BOE can now do about interest rates without causing a massive housing crash. Quite how they try to control inflation now will be interesting to watch. I think you are giving Brown far too much credit. Whist he failed to take appropriate action, this is a problem that started in the 80s with Thatcher and Regan and has been carried on since then with politicians of all sides benefiting too much to want to stop it. It is particularly bad in Anglo-US economies as they tend to be far more enamoured with home ownership than the Europeans, although they have their own variations that are likely to cause them serious pain in the years ahead.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 18, 2022 17:22:43 GMT
Gordon Brown let the housing market rise irresponsibly because it encouraged people to spend their apparent profits to make the economy look good. Unfortunately no Chancellor has since put the brakes on by restricting mortgages, so there is nothing the BOE can now do about interest rates without causing a massive housing crash. Quite how they try to control inflation now will be interesting to watch. Blaming the wrong side, I'm afraid. Gordon Brown may have failed to douse the housing fire, but he did not start it. The wholesale deregulation of the financial sector, which took the brakes off mortgage lending, took place in the 1980s under Thatcher/Lawson. More recently George Osborne was responsible for "Help to Buy" (and before that "FirstBuy") the effect of which has been to drive up prices still further, while doing little or nothing to help those who the schemes purported to help. Edit: Crossed with tallsuk. Great minds think alike!
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 18, 2022 17:56:30 GMT
Not to mention successive governments of all stripes failing to get enough houses actually built.
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on Feb 18, 2022 22:14:36 GMT
Gordon Brown let the housing market rise irresponsibly because it encouraged people to spend their apparent profits to make the economy look good. Unfortunately no Chancellor has since put the brakes on by restricting mortgages, so there is nothing the BOE can now do about interest rates without causing a massive housing crash. Quite how they try to control inflation now will be interesting to watch. Blaming the wrong side, I'm afraid. Gordon Brown may have failed to douse the housing fire, but he did not start it. The wholesale deregulation of the financial sector, which took the brakes off mortgage lending, took place in the 1980s under Thatcher/Lawson. More recently George Osborne was responsible for "Help to Buy" (and before that "FirstBuy") the effect of which has been to drive up prices still further, while doing little or nothing to help those who the schemes purported to help. Edit: Crossed with tallsuk . Great minds think alike! To be honest, I dont really think it is about sides. Regan and Thatcher laid the groundwork but it was Cinton who repealed the Glass–Steagall Act that really deregulated the financial sector and Blair, Brown, Cameron and Osboure were all happy to take advantage. The problem is politicians of all sides are happy to sacrifice long term economic benefits for short term gains because voters are unwilling to educate themselves in basic political and economic ideas. Democracy means we get the governments we deserve.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Feb 18, 2022 22:27:45 GMT
"The problem is politicians of all sides are happy to sacrifice long term economic benefits for short term gains because voters are unwilling to educate themselves in basic political and economic ideas.
Democracy means we get the governments we deserve." pikestaff Spot ON!
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 18, 2022 23:01:40 GMT
Not to mention successive governments of all stripes failing to get enough houses actually built. There are too many houses and too many people in the UK.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 18, 2022 23:13:04 GMT
Not to mention successive governments of all stripes failing to get enough houses actually built. There are too many houses and too many people in the UK. Opinion stated as fact with no supporting evidence.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 19, 2022 7:56:59 GMT
Not to mention successive governments of all stripes failing to get enough houses actually built. There are too many houses and too many people in the UK. "too many" is a relative term. Relative to what ? Clearly there aren't 'too many houses' relative to the number of people wanting one, otherwise the whole debate regarding house prices wouldn't exist/ "too many people": relative to what ? Clearly not relative to the number of people who have a legal right to call themselves a citizen or resident of the UK, since the number who are here on a permanent or semi permanent basis who don't fall into that category is a rounding error in comparison. Also, there are many millions of ex-pats who currently live abroad who by definition have the right to live here. On a maximum sustainable population density level ? I suspect the people of Singapore or Hong Kong (amongst others) might disagree with that. While the people of New Zealand might agree. On a measure of sufficient people of employment age to support an aging population ? Probably on all quantifiable measures, the answer to that is 'not enough': a country needs young people to be the engine room of its economy and to support its aging population. Just see the vacancies in the care home industry. Perhaps we need to have a formal policy of state sponsored geronticide to both balance that out and to target that 'too many' problem. Out of those eligible to be here, I see very few stepping forward to volunteer themselves to be part of the good cause to reduce 'too many' to 'just enough' against whatever measure is being used. The problem with the 'too many people' argument is multi-fold, but a good starting point is who are you going to forcibly remove or forcibly stop procreating to get to ones (normally left undefined) target number. Typically this starts with identifying a group that isn't the same as me (as I of course feel I have a greater intrinsic right to be here). And of course who else who has a right to be here but currently chooses not to be are you going prevent from returning ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 19, 2022 8:12:21 GMT
There are too many houses and too many people in the UK. "too many" is a relative term. Relative to what ? Clearly there aren't 'too many houses' relative to the number of people wanting one, otherwise the whole debate regarding house prices wouldn't exist/ "too many people": relative to what ? Clearly not relative to the number of people who have a legal right to call themselves a citizen or resident of the UK, since the number who are here on a permanent or semi permanent basis who don't fall into that category is a rounding error in comparison. Also, there are many millions of ex-pats who currently live abroad who by definition have the right to live here. On a maximum sustainable population density level ? I suspect the people of Singapore or Hong Kong (amongst others) might disagree with that. While the people of New Zealand might agree. On a measure of sufficient people of employment age to support an aging population ? Probably on all quantifiable measures, the answer to that is 'not enough': a country needs young people to be the engine room of its economy and to support its aging population. Just see the vacancies in the care home industry. Perhaps we need to have a formal policy of state sponsored geronticide to both balance that out and to target that 'too many' problem. Out of those eligible to be here, I see very few stepping forward to volunteer themselves to be part of the good cause to reduce 'too many' to 'just enough' against whatever measure is being used. The problem with the 'too many people' argument is multi-fold, but a good starting point is who are you going to forcibly remove or forcibly stop procreating to get to ones (normally left undefined) target number. Typically this starts with identifying a group that isn't the same as me (as I of course feel I have a greater intrinsic right to be here). And of course who else who has a right to be here but currently chooses not to be are you going prevent from returning ? Very well said, Brackers. If there are "too many" people in the UK, then the issue undeniably lies in the upper reaches of the age demographic. That means the issue isn't one of "remove" or "stop procreating", but one around end of life... Animation of the population aging in the UK, 1972 to 2015 preview.redd.it/50y0hy3ukpd11.gif?format=mp4&s=e063785d93db83237e78639b4c1719d4988d1965
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 19, 2022 8:46:10 GMT
Blaming the wrong side, I'm afraid. Gordon Brown may have failed to douse the housing fire, but he did not start it. The wholesale deregulation of the financial sector, which took the brakes off mortgage lending, took place in the 1980s under Thatcher/Lawson. More recently George Osborne was responsible for "Help to Buy" (and before that "FirstBuy") the effect of which has been to drive up prices still further, while doing little or nothing to help those who the schemes purported to help. Edit: Crossed with tallsuk . Great minds think alike! To be honest, I dont really think it is about sides. Regan and Thatcher laid the groundwork but it was Cinton who repealed the Glass–Steagall Act that really deregulated the financial sector and Blair, Brown, Cameron and Osboure were all happy to take advantage. The problem is politicians of all sides are happy to sacrifice long term economic benefits for short term gains because voters are unwilling to educate themselves in basic political and economic ideas. Democracy means we get the governments we deserve. The financial sector in the UK was deregulated a good decade and a half before the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. The repeal had little or no effect that I can recall on mortgage lending in the UK, and it had nothing to do with our own local disasters (Northern Rock, HBOS). Glass-Steagall never stopped US banks from mortgage lending in the UK. If anything it encouraged them to do so, because it made it hard for them to expand at home. Several US banks entered the UK mortgage market when it was deregulated in 1982. My first mortgage, in September that year, was from Bank of America. But the US banks never found the UK market very profitable (it was too competitive, because of our deregulation) and I think they had mostly left the market by 1999. I know for sure that Bank of America sold out to Bank of Ireland some time in the 80s. Today US banks' market share of UK mortgages is negligible. Having said all that, the repeal of the Glass-Stegall Act was in line with the zeitgeist of the times, which also saw "light touch" regulation in the UK (on Gordon Brown's watch, but applauded by the Tories at the time). Whether the boom and bust of the 2000s would have happened if Glass-Steagall had not been repealed can be debated. I think it probably would, but the boom and bust would have been smaller. See www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/050515/did-repeal-glasssteagall-act-contribute-2008-financial-crisis.asp with which I broadly agree. For a much longer version, see www.cato.org/policy-analysis/repeal-glass-steagall-act-myth-reality . It's a surprise to find myself agreeing with something from the libertarian Cato Institute, but in this case I do. I agree with the rest of your post!
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on Feb 19, 2022 10:10:53 GMT
To be honest, I dont really think it is about sides. Regan and Thatcher laid the groundwork but it was Cinton who repealed the Glass–Steagall Act that really deregulated the financial sector and Blair, Brown, Cameron and Osboure were all happy to take advantage. The problem is politicians of all sides are happy to sacrifice long term economic benefits for short term gains because voters are unwilling to educate themselves in basic political and economic ideas. Democracy means we get the governments we deserve. The financial sector in the UK was deregulated a good decade and a half before the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. The repeal had little or no effect that I can recall on mortgage lending in the UK, and it had nothing to do with our own local disasters (Northern Rock, HBOS). Glass-Steagall never stopped US banks from mortgage lending in the UK. If anything it encouraged them to do so, because it made it hard for them to expand at home. Several US banks entered the UK mortgage market when it was deregulated in 1982. My first mortgage, in September that year, was from Bank of America. But the US banks never found the UK market very profitable (it was too competitive, because of our deregulation) and I think they had mostly left the market by 1999. I know for sure that Bank of America sold out to Bank of Ireland some time in the 80s. Today US banks' market share of UK mortgages is negligible. Having said all that, the repeal of the Glass-Stegall Act was in line with the zeitgeist of the times, which also saw "light touch" regulation in the UK (on Gordon Brown's watch, but applauded by the Tories at the time). Whether the boom and bust of the 2000s would have happened if Glass-Steagall had not been repealed can be debated. I think it probably would, but the boom and bust would have been smaller. See www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/050515/did-repeal-glasssteagall-act-contribute-2008-financial-crisis.asp with which I broadly agree. For a much longer version, see www.cato.org/policy-analysis/repeal-glass-steagall-act-myth-reality . It's a surprise to find myself agreeing with something from the libertarian Cato Institute, but in this case I do. I agree with the rest of your post! I also agree with many of your points and, the emphasis of both articles, that reinstating the Glass-Stegall Act would be a mistake. However, the fact that US banks were not able to enter the UK mortgage market profitably shows that there were benefits of the financial deregulation. The introduction of investment banks into the commercial market meant they tried to buy their way back in that I feel led to the financial crisis. UK Investment banks did hold a significant amount of the US market. Unfortunately, like so many other aspects of economics it is all just conjecture. What I do find amusing, in the very darkest ways, is that they still call the 2008 crash the 'Great' recession. I have always considered the 90s recession far more serious and by cutting rates so severely in the aftermath of the credit crunch the avoided the really bad aspects by simply kicking the can for 15 years. I believe that 2008 was the warm up, what we could experience over the next few years are likely to be far more serious.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 19, 2022 10:59:57 GMT
Very well said, Brackers... Indeed. It's worth adding that (as I'm sure you know) the population of the UK has aged less steeply than that of most of the rest of Europe, mainly because of immigration. One of the worst effects of Brexit for the UK is that, with the immigration tap turned off and many young Eastern Europeans going home, our population will get older quicker. The dependency ratio will rise and the working population will fall. Inevitably this will lead to higher taxes and/or lower pensions in the long run.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 19, 2022 13:25:40 GMT
There are too many houses and too many people in the UK. Opinion stated as fact with no supporting evidence. It comes down to belief and you can't provide evidence for belief. Why not have a population of say 300 million and concrete over the entire country? It is my _belief_ that would not make for a pleasant place to live. And to one of BB's many points, you need to first set a future ambition. Do we want our population density to be more like Singapore or more like Pakistan? Then we set policies which over a very long time (several election cycles) set out to achieve that. And no Registerme that doesn't mean deporting people "not like me" or indeed any other racist policy. And no that doesn't mean draconian "1 child" per family type policies or sealed borders but it does mean we have to make policy which encourages a given target PD.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2022 13:42:03 GMT
It comes down to belief and you can't provide evidence for belief If your belief has any grounding in fact or reality, then it should be trivially easy to provide some evidence for it...
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 19, 2022 13:54:25 GMT
It comes down to belief and you can't provide evidence for belief If your belief has any grounding in fact or reality, then it should be trivially easy to provide some evidence for it... "I believe in God." "I believe having a large garden makes me happy" How do I provide evidence ? I think almost by definition, a belief does not need to have evidence to back it up.
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