james100
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Post by james100 on Feb 19, 2022 14:04:17 GMT
If your belief has any grounding in fact or reality, then it should be trivially easy to provide some evidence for it... "I believe in God." "I believe having a large garden makes me happy" How do I provide evidence ? I think almost by definition, a belief does not need to have evidence to back it up. UK just sneaks into the top 50 countries for pop density (at 49) link But even when you look at the constituent nations and take the most "crowded" i.e. England the distribution is hardly uniform link. Within England, I used to live in one of the most densely populated districts (> 10,000/km2). I currently reside in a different district with < 200/km2. That's quite a difference but I can't say one area is more pleasant than the other...if you forced me, I'd have to admit a preference for the more densely populated district. In fact, if we do get an overdue property correction or I win the lottery I'll be hoping to pick up a second home back in the more populous area. Yes, my large garden makes me happy but I still miss London I understand what you are saying about beliefs, I'm just not sure this falls in to the same category.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 19, 2022 15:12:19 GMT
Opinion stated as fact with no supporting evidence. It comes down to belief and you can't provide evidence for belief. There is a world of difference between saying "X is", and "I think X is because...". The first is stated as fact, the second as opinion with justification or reasoning.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 19, 2022 16:32:24 GMT
Opinion stated as fact with no supporting evidence. It comes down to belief and you can't provide evidence for belief. And that's exactly why it's an opinion, not a fact. Yet some of the most densely-populated parts of the country are amongst the most expensive to live, while some of the most sparsely populated are amongst the cheapest... Local authority areas by population density... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population_densityUK average - 281/km2... That would put it at the 225th densest in England out of 317, 251st in UK out of 371 - Most average? Fife, exactly the same. Or Basingstoke & Deane in England. English average - 432/km2... 195th out of 317, equal with Maidstone in Kent or Tendring in Essex (Clacton, Harwich, Frinton, Brightlingsea). The UK is not exactly overcrowded. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41901294
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 19, 2022 18:35:59 GMT
It comes down to belief and you can't provide evidence for belief. And that's exactly why it's an opinion, not a fact. Yet some of the most densely-populated parts of the country are amongst the most expensive to live, while some of the most sparsely populated are amongst the cheapest... Local authority areas by population density... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population_densityUK average - 281/km2... That would put it at the 225th densest in England out of 317, 251st in UK out of 371 - Most average? Fife, exactly the same. Or Basingstoke & Deane in England. English average - 432/km2... 195th out of 317, equal with Maidstone in Kent or Tendring in Essex (Clacton, Harwich, Frinton, Brightlingsea). The UK is not exactly overcrowded. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41901294Because the best/most lucrative jobs are in the most densely populated areas, ie, the big cities. It is easy to say there should be less people and less houses fine if your family is complete and you have a nice place to live. Then you say pull up the drawbridge and everyone else shouldn't be able to have a nice place to live, too many people.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 19, 2022 19:45:15 GMT
And that's exactly why it's an opinion, not a fact. Yet some of the most densely-populated parts of the country are amongst the most expensive to live, while some of the most sparsely populated are amongst the cheapest... Local authority areas by population density... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population_densityUK average - 281/km2... That would put it at the 225th densest in England out of 317, 251st in UK out of 371 - Most average? Fife, exactly the same. Or Basingstoke & Deane in England. English average - 432/km2... 195th out of 317, equal with Maidstone in Kent or Tendring in Essex (Clacton, Harwich, Frinton, Brightlingsea). The UK is not exactly overcrowded. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41901294Because the best/most lucrative jobs are in the most densely populated areas, ie, the big cities. It is easy to say there should be less people and less houses fine if your family is complete and you have a nice place to live. Then you say pull up the drawbridge and everyone else shouldn't be able to have a nice place to live, too many people. But your fellow forumites don't even agree with me that having more space per person is a good thing. Where is the evidence of that they cry? When I point out such a thing comes down to core belief I'm then further attacked for not prefacing my comments with "I think that...". Such a preface is clear for all comments from all forumites unless stated otherwise. Regarding your drawbridge comments, that along with changes to planning law and incentives to keep your family size modest might all feed into the solution but right now nobody here agrees with me that there are too many people and probably enough houses already.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 19, 2022 20:26:48 GMT
Because the best/most lucrative jobs are in the most densely populated areas, ie, the big cities. It is easy to say there should be less people and less houses fine if your family is complete and you have a nice place to live. Then you say pull up the drawbridge and everyone else shouldn't be able to have a nice place to live, too many people. But your fellow forumites don't even agree with me that having more space per person is a good thing. Where is the evidence of that they cry? When I point out such a thing comes down to core belief I'm then further attacked for not prefacing my comments with "I think that...". Such a preface is clear for all comments from all forumites unless stated otherwise. Regarding your drawbridge comments, that along with changes to planning law and incentives to keep your family size modest might all feed into the solution but right now nobody here agrees with me that there are too many people and probably enough houses already.And neither do I. Edit: And I think you have two children which must surely be too many to help the population reduce?
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 19, 2022 22:32:14 GMT
Because the best/most lucrative jobs are in the most densely populated areas, ie, the big cities. It is easy to say there should be less people and less houses fine if your family is complete and you have a nice place to live. Then you say pull up the drawbridge and everyone else shouldn't be able to have a nice place to live, too many people. But your fellow forumites don't even agree with me that having more space per person is a good thing. Where is the evidence of that they cry? When I point out such a thing comes down to core belief I'm then further attacked for not prefacing my comments with "I think that...". Such a preface is clear for all comments from all forumites unless stated otherwise. Regarding your drawbridge comments, that along with changes to planning law and incentives to keep your family size modest might all feed into the solution but right now nobody here agrees with me that there are too many people and probably enough houses already. Well personally, I'm a country lad at heart. Was bought up there. then spent quite a lot of time in London (around 20+ years). Before moving elsewhere. My heart though has always been to be out with boots on my feet and hills in my eyes and heart. Or out on my bike, out in the countryside and hills. I'd also like to be able to walk out my front door every night and see the beauty of a night sky without light pollution. Like I could as a kid, and still can when I am back at the family home. Actually, more importantly than that, I'd like every young kid that is around today to experience that, so that they can appreciate the sheer joy and wonder that comes from looking up at a clear milky way. So from that angle I would love 'less people, less houses'. But if I was to express that as a belief of what we should be doing, as a 'rage against the machine', without saying how I would get to that: well that would be me just exhibiting a child like naivety and frankly self indulgence. So no, I wouldn't "criticise" anyone for saying they "believe" there are too many houses and too many people. But doing so while failing to say what they propose as practical alternatives is an act of wishful thinking. It is kind of a nice and comforting statement, while entirely skirting around the idea of how you do it: geronticide anyone ? forcible removable of (largely old) people from houses larger than they need, to smaller ones to free up multi room housing stock ? Deportation ? provide incentives for people to have fewer kids to take the reproductive rate even lower behind the replacement rate ? foreign spouses of UK citizens to not have rights to UK residency (even when 'with' their spouse) ? likewise their offspring whether born in the UK or not ? And then of course have a vision how the significantly changed demographic can reasonably function economically compared to how it does currently.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 19, 2022 23:07:48 GMT
But your fellow forumites don't even agree with me that having more space per person is a good thing. Where is the evidence of that they cry? When I point out such a thing comes down to core belief I'm then further attacked for not prefacing my comments with "I think that...". Such a preface is clear for all comments from all forumites unless stated otherwise. Regarding your drawbridge comments, that along with changes to planning law and incentives to keep your family size modest might all feed into the solution but right now nobody here agrees with me that there are too many people and probably enough houses already. Well personally, I'm a country lad at heart. Was bought up there. then spent quite a lot of time in London (around 20+ years). Before moving elsewhere. My heart though has always been to be out with boots on my feet and hills in my eyes and heart. Or out on my bike, out in the countryside and hills. I'd also like to be able to walk out my front door every night and see the beauty of a night sky without light pollution. Like I could as a kid, and still can when I am back at the family home. Actually, more importantly than that, I'd like every young kid that is around today to experience that, so that they can appreciate the sheer joy and wonder that comes from looking up at a clear milky way. So from that angle I would love 'less people, less houses'. But if I was to express that as a belief of what we should be doing, as a 'rage against the machine', without saying how I would get to that: well that would be me just exhibiting a child like naivety and frankly self indulgence. So no, I wouldn't "criticise" anyone for saying they "believe" there are too many houses and too many people. But doing so while failing to say what they propose as practical alternatives is an act of wishful thinking. It is kind of a nice and comforting statement, while entirely skirting around the idea of how you do it: geronticide anyone ? forcible removable of (largely old) people from houses larger than they need, to smaller ones to free up multi room housing stock ? Deportation ? provide incentives for people to have fewer kids to take the reproductive rate even lower behind the replacement rate ? foreign spouses of UK citizens to not have rights to UK residency (even when 'with' their spouse) ? likewise their offspring whether born in the UK or not ? And then of course have a vision how the significantly changed demographic can reasonably function economically compared to how it does currently. They don't currently have that right.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Feb 19, 2022 23:16:59 GMT
Well personally, I'm a country lad at heart. Was bought up there. then spent quite a lot of time in London (around 20+ years). Before moving elsewhere. My heart though has always been to be out with boots on my feet and hills in my eyes and heart. Or out on my bike, out in the countryside and hills. I'd also like to be able to walk out my front door every night and see the beauty of a night sky without light pollution. Like I could as a kid, and still can when I am back at the family home. Actually, more importantly than that, I'd like every young kid that is around today to experience that, so that they can appreciate the sheer joy and wonder that comes from looking up at a clear milky way. So from that angle I would love 'less people, less houses'. But if I was to express that as a belief of what we should be doing, as a 'rage against the machine', without saying how I would get to that: well that would be me just exhibiting a child like naivety and frankly self indulgence. So no, I wouldn't "criticise" anyone for saying they "believe" there are too many houses and too many people. But doing so while failing to say what they propose as practical alternatives is an act of wishful thinking. It is kind of a nice and comforting statement, while entirely skirting around the idea of how you do it: geronticide anyone ? forcible removable of (largely old) people from houses larger than they need, to smaller ones to free up multi room housing stock ? Deportation ? provide incentives for people to have fewer kids to take the reproductive rate even lower behind the replacement rate ? foreign spouses of UK citizens to not have rights to UK residency (even when 'with' their spouse) ? likewise their offspring whether born in the UK or not ? And then of course have a vision how the significantly changed demographic can reasonably function economically compared to how it does currently. They don't currently have that right. Anybody ever watch Logans Run? Would take brave politician to back the theory but would solve a lot of problems.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 19, 2022 23:20:43 GMT
They don't currently have that right. Anybody ever watch Logans Run? Would take brave politician to back the theory but would solve a lot of problems. There'd be no more arguments on this board that's for sure !
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 20, 2022 7:27:22 GMT
Well personally, I'm a country lad at heart. Was bought up there. then spent quite a lot of time in London (around 20+ years). Before moving elsewhere. My heart though has always been to be out with boots on my feet and hills in my eyes and heart. Or out on my bike, out in the countryside and hills. I'd also like to be able to walk out my front door every night and see the beauty of a night sky without light pollution. Like I could as a kid, and still can when I am back at the family home. Actually, more importantly than that, I'd like every young kid that is around today to experience that, so that they can appreciate the sheer joy and wonder that comes from looking up at a clear milky way. So from that angle I would love 'less people, less houses'. But if I was to express that as a belief of what we should be doing, as a 'rage against the machine', without saying how I would get to that: well that would be me just exhibiting a child like naivety and frankly self indulgence. So no, I wouldn't "criticise" anyone for saying they "believe" there are too many houses and too many people. But doing so while failing to say what they propose as practical alternatives is an act of wishful thinking. It is kind of a nice and comforting statement, while entirely skirting around the idea of how you do it: geronticide anyone ? forcible removable of (largely old) people from houses larger than they need, to smaller ones to free up multi room housing stock ? Deportation ? provide incentives for people to have fewer kids to take the reproductive rate even lower behind the replacement rate ? foreign spouses of UK citizens to not have rights to UK residency (even when 'with' their spouse) ? likewise their offspring whether born in the UK or not ? And then of course have a vision how the significantly changed demographic can reasonably function economically compared to how it does currently. They don't currently have that right. You are of course correct that they don't qualify to have "UK Residency" status. They are of course though - in the vast majority of cases - able to legally be resident in the UK. So for the purposes of UK population/head count it amounts to the same thing. There is also of course then a route to UK citizenship should they so wish.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 20, 2022 9:23:09 GMT
And that's exactly why it's an opinion, not a fact. Yet some of the most densely-populated parts of the country are amongst the most expensive to live, while some of the most sparsely populated are amongst the cheapest... Local authority areas by population density... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population_densityUK average - 281/km2... That would put it at the 225th densest in England out of 317, 251st in UK out of 371 - Most average? Fife, exactly the same. Or Basingstoke & Deane in England. English average - 432/km2... 195th out of 317, equal with Maidstone in Kent or Tendring in Essex (Clacton, Harwich, Frinton, Brightlingsea). The UK is not exactly overcrowded. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41901294Because the best/most lucrative jobs are in the most densely populated areas, ie, the big cities. Except for the minor detail that commuting is an option. Nobody HAS to live in central London, for instance, yet the top 20 densest local authorities are London boroughs. All 32 boroughs are in the top 90 densest areas. There are much more affordable areas, far less densely populated, within easy commuting distance. All three of the English "most average" areas are commuter-belt, with the English average density 1/40th of the densest borough - and some of the most expensive areas in London are in the densest areas. The Scottish "most average" area is prime commute for the Scottish capital, which is far more expensive AND nearly 6x as dense.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 20, 2022 9:29:21 GMT
... I'm then further attacked... Criticism is not the same as an attack. But I am sorry you feel that I did attack you. To prevent that happening going forwards I'll simply try to avoid responding to you.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 20, 2022 9:46:56 GMT
Well personally, I'm a country lad at heart. Was bought up there. then spent quite a lot of time in London (around 20+ years). Before moving elsewhere. My heart though has always been to be out with boots on my feet and hills in my eyes and heart. Or out on my bike, out in the countryside and hills. I'd also like to be able to walk out my front door every night and see the beauty of a night sky without light pollution. Like I could as a kid, and still can when I am back at the family home. Actually, more importantly than that, I'd like every young kid that is around today to experience that, so that they can appreciate the sheer joy and wonder that comes from looking up at a clear milky way. So from that angle I would love 'less people, less houses'. But if I was to express that as a belief of what we should be doing, as a 'rage against the machine', without saying how I would get to that: well that would be me just exhibiting a child like naivety and frankly self indulgence. So no, I wouldn't "criticise" anyone for saying they "believe" there are too many houses and too many people. But doing so while failing to say what they propose as practical alternatives is an act of wishful thinking. It is kind of a nice and comforting statement, while entirely skirting around the idea of how you do it: geronticide anyone ? forcible removable of (largely old) people from houses larger than they need, to smaller ones to free up multi room housing stock ? Deportation ? provide incentives for people to have fewer kids to take the reproductive rate even lower behind the replacement rate ? foreign spouses of UK citizens to not have rights to UK residency (even when 'with' their spouse) ? likewise their offspring whether born in the UK or not ? And then of course have a vision how the significantly changed demographic can reasonably function economically compared to how it does currently. They don't currently have that right. But it's not just UK.
My niece is married to a German man. She doesn't have rights to German residency, he doesn't have rights to UK residency, but their 2 children have rights in both countries.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 20, 2022 10:02:46 GMT
... I'm then further attacked... Criticism is not the same as an attack. Not even criticism. Just explanation that a fact and an opinion are different.
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