michaelc
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Say No To T.D.S.
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Post by michaelc on Jul 11, 2024 14:36:18 GMT
Except as far as I can tell it represents absolutely no actual change in policy, no matter the Sky article. From May: Kyiv can use British weapons inside Russia - Cameron"UK Foreign Secretary Lord Cameron has said it is up to Ukraine to decide how to use British weapons and insisted it has the right to strike targets on Russian territory." A "shift" (aka ratcheting up) can be subtle and easily missed but I certainly hope you're right.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jul 11, 2024 16:29:14 GMT
Yes, in my opinion there should be a negotiated settlement that ends hostilities immediately and takes into account the fact that some of the people in Ukraine who consider themselves to be Russian want to be part of the Russian Federation (and not ruled by the anti-russian Zelensky Government)
Perhaps a sign post for those people that supposedly want to be russian then and putin can withdraw his military from a sovereign nation !
"Russia - this way ->"
I would strongly advise against making a sign like this and taking it to the regions currently under Russian control.
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k6
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Post by k6 on Jul 11, 2024 18:00:10 GMT
And I'm sure they will give your advice full consideration, and treat it with the solemnity which it deserves. Presumably your advice to Putin is to get the **** out of Ukrainian territory and to stop the destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure, the murder of Ukrainians whether at the front line or civilians, the systemic rape of women, the deportation of children, and not forgetting the utter decimation of the Russian male population by throwing them into barbaric WW1 style attacks ? Yes, in my opinion there should be a negotiated settlement that ends hostilities immediately and takes into account the fact that some of the people in Ukraine who consider themselves to be Russian want to be part of the Russian Federation (and not ruled by the anti-russian Zelensky Government) No Negotiation with russian putler . ZERO . If you want to end hostilities start sending messages to your russian comrades trying to explaining them they just a slaves of putler and his circle . If any person residing in Ukraine consider them self a russina , well they know where to go . The russian land is a Plenty . Zelensky is not anti-russian , Zalensky is pro-free / independent Ukraine that is more culturally divers and respectful then most places on this earth How is your stream of rubles ? still flowing i guess ?
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 12, 2024 18:13:03 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 12, 2024 19:36:16 GMT
I'm no Russophile so hopefully your comment wasn't aimed at me. I'd love for Ukraine to take back all it has lost since 2014 including Crimea. I just don't think that is realistic. In fact very unfortunately it is 100% not realistic. So what drag on for another 10 years before we then get round the table and Ukraine gives up this land anyway and to hell with those suffering now? Even if you're not involved surely you'd like a big fillip to your pension pots when an agreement to end it is signed ? The only other possible option is NATO sends troops into Ukraine and possibly Russia too. Then we all die. Or what? Is Russia just gonna sit there and take it?
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k6
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Post by k6 on Jul 13, 2024 12:25:51 GMT
I'm no Russophile so hopefully your comment wasn't aimed at me. I'd love for Ukraine to take back all it has lost since 2014 including Crimea. I just don't think that is realistic. In fact very unfortunately it is 100% not realistic. So what drag on for another 10 years before we then get round the table and Ukraine gives up this land anyway and to hell with those suffering now? Even if you're not involved surely you'd like a big fillip to your pension pots when an agreement to end it is signed ? The only other possible option is NATO sends troops into Ukraine and possibly Russia too. Then we all die. Or what? Is Russia just gonna sit there and take it? Its like you know things that Ukraine leaders don't . So, if you don't, then don't spread your 100% unrealistic ideas . So , since you know we all die , any planes for the rest of your days ? Some buckets list wises ? Perhaps trip to . . . Ukraine ? You would be amazed how nice ppl are there and then you can start wearing shirts with FCUK Putler sign .
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 13, 2024 16:25:15 GMT
Don't worry michaelc, I understand your delicate position and in no way class you 'Russophile' . Meanwhile, this made me laugh ? |
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 13, 2024 18:19:18 GMT
I'm no Russophile so hopefully your comment wasn't aimed at me. I'd love for Ukraine to take back all it has lost since 2014 including Crimea. I just don't think that is realistic. In fact very unfortunately it is 100% not realistic. So what drag on for another 10 years before we then get round the table and Ukraine gives up this land anyway and to hell with those suffering now? Even if you're not involved surely you'd like a big fillip to your pension pots when an agreement to end it is signed ? The only other possible option is NATO sends troops into Ukraine and possibly Russia too. Then we all die. Or what? Is Russia just gonna sit there and take it? Its like you know things that Ukraine leaders don't . So, if you don't, then don't spread your 100% unrealistic ideas . So , since you know we all die , any planes for the rest of your days ? Some buckets list wises ? Perhaps trip to . . . Ukraine ? You would be amazed how nice ppl are there and then you can start wearing shirts with FCUK Putler sign . Tell me oh wise one how are we going to push Russia back?
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k6
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Post by k6 on Jul 13, 2024 19:22:12 GMT
Its like you know things that Ukraine leaders don't . So, if you don't, then don't spread your 100% unrealistic ideas . So , since you know we all die , any planes for the rest of your days ? Some buckets list wises ? Perhaps trip to . . . Ukraine ? You would be amazed how nice ppl are there and then you can start wearing shirts with FCUK Putler sign . Tell me oh wise one how are we going to push Russia back? Sure , Ukrainians are eager to protect their territory, lets help them as much as is needed and possible . Simply, there isn't enough support, a support that could easily be provided . The biggest mistake was delayed support . The game would be over long time ago unfortunately there are those higher that would rather prolong this WAR . There are means to Stop this atrocities there are just not being implemented ( yet ) russia is there only side responsible for this . PERIOD
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 13, 2024 19:37:21 GMT
Tell me oh wise one how are we going to push Russia back? Sure , Ukrainians are eager to protect their territory, lets help them as much as is needed and possible . Simply, there isn't enough support, a support that could easily be provided . The biggest mistake was delayed support . The game would be over long time ago unfortunately there are those higher that would rather prolong this WAR . There are means to Stop this atrocities there are just not being implemented ( yet ) russia is there only side responsible for this . PERIOD Are you going to tell us how to push them back or not? Thought not.
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 13, 2024 21:27:59 GMT
Sure , Ukrainians are eager to protect their territory, lets help them as much as is needed and possible . Simply, there isn't enough support, a support that could easily be provided . The biggest mistake was delayed support . The game would be over long time ago unfortunately there are those higher that would rather prolong this WAR . There are means to Stop this atrocities there are just not being implemented ( yet ) russia is there only side responsible for this . PERIOD Are you going to tell us how to push them back or not? Thought not. The Russian army is bashing away in an unsustainable way. They have defeated themselves because while they still had enough trained soldiers in 2023 they failed to bring them together at a single point and spearing through. Instead they expended their experienced soldiers and their best equipment with poorly supported probing attacks at numerous points. Now they cannot make such a decisive attack even if they wanted to. While they still have the people obeying orders to drive or walk into minefields, it is not the moment for Ukraine to 'push them back' Eventually the tide will turn, as it did when Ukraine suddenly swept them back from Kyiv, Kharkiv. Probably next year though. Bets are off if Trump wins, the war will grind on with European support because it is not possible for Ukraine to sign a treaty, to release its grip on the Russian army because any period of peace would allow them to rearm, and no treaty with Russia is worth the paper its written on.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 13, 2024 22:06:38 GMT
Are you going to tell us how to push them back or not? Thought not. The Russian army is bashing away in an unsustainable way. They have defeated themselves because while they still had enough trained soldiers in 2023 they failed to bring them together at a single point and spearing through. Instead they expended their experienced soldiers and their best equipment with poorly supported probing attacks at numerous points. Now they cannot make such a decisive attack even if they wanted to. While they still have the people obeying orders to drive or walk into minefields, it is not the moment for Ukraine to 'push them back' Eventually the tide will turn, as it did when Ukraine suddenly swept them back from Kyiv, Kharkiv. Probably next year though. Bets are off if Trump wins, the war will grind on with European support because it is not possible for Ukraine to sign a treaty, to release its grip on the Russian army because any period of peace would allow them to rearm, and no treaty with Russia is worth the paper its written on. That's the bloody problem though CC. If we thought it really could be good news next year, folk would be more likely to want to wait for it. But if this goes on 10 years....well I don't want to speak for everyone but think to yourself what you would prefer. And I certainly agree about a treaty on its own being not much more than a ceasefire to rearm. But if said treaty did not prohibit Ukraine joining NATO or at the very least the EU and definitely allowed foreign troops along the front line then why not take that? Yes, you've lost but you won't lose anymore. To me there is a big difference between pausing now, signing some bit of paper with Russia (terrible) and actually having the military backup to stop the invaders going any further (tolerable and fantastic for 50 million Ukrainians dotted around).
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 13, 2024 22:29:52 GMT
Are you going to tell us how to push them back or not? Thought not. The Russian army is bashing away in an unsustainable way. They have defeated themselves because while they still had enough trained soldiers in 2023 they failed to bring them together at a single point and spearing through. Instead they expended their experienced soldiers and their best equipment with poorly supported probing attacks at numerous points. Now they cannot make such a decisive attack even if they wanted to. While they still have the people obeying orders to drive or walk into minefields, it is not the moment for Ukraine to 'push them back' Eventually the tide will turn, as it did when Ukraine suddenly swept them back from Kyiv, Kharkiv. Probably next year though. Bets are off if Trump wins, the war will grind on with European support because it is not possible for Ukraine to sign a treaty, to release its grip on the Russian army because any period of peace would allow them to rearm, and no treaty with Russia is worth the paper its written on. Unsustainable isnt really a word in the Russian lexicon - how many dead in WWII? - they just keep grinding away, crumbling the front ... an attack here, an attack there, yes, its a klick at a time but its just relentless pressure. There is no chance of the tide turning currently, the Ukr just dont have the men to do it and there isnt really a wonder weapon that is going to change that .. the Russians have leant their lesson and there arent going to be any easy advances
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 13, 2024 22:30:53 GMT
The problem there is that Russia doesn't want these ruined provinces and a hard border. Putin technique has always been the festering sore. So that is not going to happen. Ukraine would probably take such a treaty that puts an international force on that border but not Russia.
You think Trump can solve it? Like his solution to the Israel Palestine problem. My solution is that Israel gets all of Palestine! And neither side takes a blind bit of notice of the Trump definitive solution. Ukraine will take no notice of Trumps magic bullets either.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 15, 2024 23:27:51 GMT
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