angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 14, 2024 11:01:17 GMT
...the Proxy war in Ukraine... If it's a proxy war, then presumably Putin's invasion of Ukraine was a proxy invasion of NATO territory? In which case, surely invoking Article 5 would be justified? Ukraine is not part of NATO. Personally if I was living in one of the NATO countries bordering Russia I would not assume the US will come to my rescue if the Russian tanks come rolling over the border.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 14, 2024 11:06:01 GMT
If it's a proxy war, then presumably Putin's invasion of Ukraine was a proxy invasion of NATO territory? In which case, surely invoking Article 5 would be justified? Ukraine is not part of NATO. I know. But you were the one who raised the concept of it being a proxy. I'm merely following your line of logic.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 14, 2024 11:09:09 GMT
Ukraine attacking inside Russia does not sit comfortably with me, necessarily. I'd prefer if they were continuing to defend their own territory. BUT... if the attacks inside Russia are limited to denying Russia the capability of attacking, destroying the airbases etc, then I'm reasonably happy. Ukraine has been attacking inside Russia but not using NATO missiles. Russia's objection seems to be that the use of Storm Shadow missiles has at some level to involve the UK military or NATO military - whether this is true or not I have no idea.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 14, 2024 11:41:31 GMT
Ukraine attacking inside Russia does not sit comfortably with me, necessarily. I'd prefer if they were continuing to defend their own territory. BUT... if the attacks inside Russia are limited to denying Russia the capability of attacking, destroying the airbases etc, then I'm reasonably happy. Ukraine has been attacking inside Russia but not using NATO missiles. Russia's objection seems to be that the use of Storm Shadow missiles has at some level to involve the UK military or NATO military - whether this is true or not I have no idea. The issue with Storm Shadow is that it is having to the jerry rigged to work with Ukr aircraft, namely the Su24 Fencer. This means that the targets have to be pre-programed on the ground as they cant be integrated with the aircrafts own targeting systems. This means that they have to be used on fixed strategic rather than moveable tactical targets so are no use on the actual frontlines and wont make any difference there. It is the programming on the ground and the satellite guidance where NATO personal are believed to be involved by the Russians. ATACMS are a slightly different case as they can be used tactically and UKr already has permission for that in certain circumstances. Anyway it seems the whole thing is put on hold until the UN meeting ... Ukr needs to concentrate on getting its ground position stabilised and long range strategic weapons arent going to affect that.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 14, 2024 11:51:41 GMT
angrysaveruk why is it ok for Russia to fire Russian, Iranian and North Korean missiles and drones at Ukraine whenever it feels like it, often targeting civilian infrastructure, but it's not ok for Ukraine to fire Ukrainian and NATO missiles and drones at what principally military targets in Russia?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 14, 2024 12:02:25 GMT
The perception is, is it not, that it's the UK that persuaded them? ... more likely the French or N Eastern Europeans who are much more aggressive but that doesn't fit with the propaganda narrative. The UK isn't the lead anymore but Putin is still sore that the UK was the initial driver of resistance & supplied much of the training & MAPATS that stopped the initial cake walk so we are always going to be the bogeyman. US, Poles & Germans far bigger weapons contributors. Seems like the chatgpt interface is getting better at emulating emotion. What version are you and where have you been trained ? The UK most definitely has and is taking the lead in resistance against russian aggression. I didn't see Macron rushing over the Atlantic and I don't see Shultz rushing to offer his missiles.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 14, 2024 12:06:45 GMT
angrysaveruk why is it ok for Russia to fire Russian, Iranian and North Korean missiles and drones at Ukraine whenever it feels like it, often targeting civilian infrastructure, but it's not ok for Ukraine to fire Ukrainian and NATO missiles and drones at what principally military targets in Russia? Its not about what is OK. Of course its not OK for Russia to be sending any troops or any missiles into Ukraine. Its about recognising reality. As we have had many times during the cold war we've had the USSR and the US nearly come to blows in many 3rd party states. Pretty much never has either of those two superpowers have directly had troops fighting each other. Despite the obvious rights of the 3rd party, both superpowers realised that how much worse it would be if they directly targeted each other. It is that which is behind the US being slow to agree allowing of Russian targets for their missiles. The US is wrong and you'd be even more hawkish (as in putting OUR lives and families at risk) would you ? I suspect if you were Biden you'd do exactly the same thing. Edit: As for scare mongering. This guy (not you RM) is going to be saying I'm scare mongering as the bombs fall. He'd carry on saying it "its only a few convential missiles landing on our green and pleasant land - we're gonna hit them much harder...Stop scare mongering will you!". Reminds me very much of that propaganda guy from Sadam's regime who was filmed saying all is good and stop scare mongering just as bombs were falling behind him.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 14, 2024 12:10:14 GMT
So if it's not ok what do you suggest is done about it?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 14, 2024 12:16:09 GMT
The UK most definitely has and is taking the lead in resistance against russian aggression. I didn't see Macron rushing over the Atlantic and I don't see Shultz rushing to offer his missiles. Much as I hate to intrude with facts and reality... www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/Germany - €10.2bn military aid, €3bn humanitarian, €1.4bn financial = 0.4% GDP direct + 0.22% via share of EU (total €2.3bn humanitarian, €37bn financial) = 0.62% total. UK - €8.9bn military, €0.8bn humanitarian, €3.3bn financial = 0.5% GDP
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 14, 2024 12:17:10 GMT
Of course its not OK for Russia to be sending any troops or any missiles into Ukraine. So what do you propose as a response to that? Tut loudly, and maybe wag a finger? Or do something to stop 'em?
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 14, 2024 12:28:50 GMT
angrysaveruk why is it ok for Russia to fire Russian, Iranian and North Korean missiles and drones at Ukraine whenever it feels like it, often targeting civilian infrastructure, but it's not ok for Ukraine to fire Ukrainian and NATO missiles and drones at what principally military targets in Russia? I dont agree with any of it or think any of what has gone on in Ukraine both pre-Russian invasion and post invasion is OK. The point the Putin is making is these missiles have to be targeted by NATO - they are not independent autonomous weapons like a hand grenade or AK47 or Bazooka which you have probably read about in your military story books you often mention - they are linked into NATO targeting satellite systems, I would post a link to some commentary by a US military analyst who has extensive knowledge of this but I am no longer posting any links given the recent wave of arrests in the UK since I (and the website owner) will be liable for any content on the website I link which because it is in the US might contain controversial subject matter and commentary. From what I understand you cannot just unbox one of these missiles, put it on a plane and launch it at some target you have picked out on a google earth via its GPS location.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 14, 2024 12:29:44 GMT
Not from anyone thats informed ... more likely the French or N Eastern Europeans who are much more aggressive but that doesn't fit with the propaganda narrative. The UK isn't the lead anymore but Putin is still sore that the UK was the initial driver of resistance & supplied much of the training & MAPATS that stopped the initial cake walk so we are always going to be the bogeyman. US, Poles & Germans far bigger weapons contributors. Seems like the chatgpt interface is getting better at emulating emotion. What version are you and where have you been trained ? The UK most definitely has and is taking the lead in resistance against russian aggression. I didn't see Macron rushing over the Atlantic and I don't see Shultz rushing to offer his missiles. Didnt need to ... he saw Biden in Paris. Macron called for use of SCALP on loan range targets in May, www.ft.com/content/24804516-b67c-40cc-8684-ccbf06b38268He's probably the most aggressive of the NATO leaders ... boots on the ground! ... but that doesnt fit the Russian narrative Keep on with the chatgp ... highly amusing and makes you look stupid
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 14, 2024 12:54:10 GMT
Seems like the chatgpt interface is getting better at emulating emotion. What version are you and where have you been trained ? The UK most definitely has and is taking the lead in resistance against russian aggression. I didn't see Macron rushing over the Atlantic and I don't see Shultz rushing to offer his missiles. Didnt need to ... he saw Biden in Paris. Macron called for use of SCALP on loan range targets in May, www.ft.com/content/24804516-b67c-40cc-8684-ccbf06b38268He's probably the most aggressive of the NATO leaders ... boots on the ground! ... but that doesnt fit the Russian narrative Keep on with the chatgp ... highly amusing and makes you look stupid That was back at the start of June and it was to commemorate the fallen in the WW2 wasn't it ? Hardly the same as a dash across the pond. Need to remember your name by the way - its got a "t" at the end. 
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 14, 2024 13:07:37 GMT
Didnt need to ... he saw Biden in Paris. Macron called for use of SCALP on loan range targets in May, www.ft.com/content/24804516-b67c-40cc-8684-ccbf06b38268He's probably the most aggressive of the NATO leaders ... boots on the ground! ... but that doesnt fit the Russian narrative Keep on with the chatgp ... highly amusing and makes you look stupid That was back at the start of June and it was to commemorate the fallen in the WW2 wasn't it ? Hardly the same as a dash across the pond. Need to remember your name by the way - its got a "t" at the end. Yes, June but no official state visit to Paris after the D-Day stuff ... June being after May unlikely discussions didnt cover use of Western weapons on Russian targets
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Sept 14, 2024 13:44:37 GMT
Didnt need to ... he saw Biden in Paris. Macron called for use of SCALP on loan range targets in May, www.ft.com/content/24804516-b67c-40cc-8684-ccbf06b38268He's probably the most aggressive of the NATO leaders ... boots on the ground! ... but that doesnt fit the Russian narrative Keep on with the chatgp ... highly amusing and makes you look stupid That was back at the start of June and it was to commemorate the fallen in the WW2 wasn't it ? Hardly the same as a dash across the pond. Need to remember your name by the way - its got a "t" at the end. no chatGP is the online AI doctor service which is why its understanding of the war in Ukraine is poor
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