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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 12, 2023 8:02:51 GMT
....So when Benjamin Netanyahu turns up with a bunch of orthodox Jews waving plans of the 1st temple forcing entrance with the help of Israeli soldiers he knows exactly how incendiary these actions are. ... Quite. As does the hard right minister Ben-Gvir when visiting the Al-Aqsa mosque and declaring that "Israel is in charge". These are deeply and knowingly provocative acts; and of course deeply political ones in terms of grand standing to their hard right supporters. EDIT: to my earlier post of phrases that first come to mind, I should have included: 4. ****ing religion (not for the first time)
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 12, 2023 13:46:09 GMT
This middle east topic is likely to remain very serious for some time. I wonder if it is so serious that it warrants its own thread created by someone far more senior than I ?
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 12, 2023 16:56:59 GMT
This middle east topic is likely to remain very serious for some time. I wonder if it is so serious that it warrants its own thread created by someone far more senior than I ? By my count, its at the very least 75 years and still counting, so yeah I think you are right 
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Post by bernythedolt on Oct 12, 2023 21:37:37 GMT
I visited Jerusalem some 30 plus years ago as part of this we had one day with a Jewish guide visiting the Wailing Wall, Alexa Mosque, site of the Jewish 1st temple and other religious sites. First thing to say is the close proximity to each other of all these sites, close walking distance. Approaching the wailing wall from the Jewish area you did not need to be told when entering the Arab area the drop in standard of municipal infrastructure may as well have been marked with a painted line in the road. At the wailing wall above your head a fence prevented the Arabs in the Alexa mosque dropping rocks on your head.Then walking approx 100m to the right we were at a narrow rough path leading up to the Alexa mosque site guarded by Israeli soldiers and just through a small gate mosque officials. Our guide counts out plans of the now ruined 1st temple and explains that for Orthodox Jews the state of Israel will not exist until the 1st temple is rebuilt and the Messiah comes, not Christ. However there is an problem the Alexa mosque is in the the way and will need to be demolished to restore the site. He then carefully counts the plans back and leaves them with the Israeli soldiers explaining the Arabs will not like us turning up with from their point of view sets of builders plans before we enter the mosque site. So when Benjamin Netanyahu turns up with a bunch of orthodox Jews waving plans of the 1st temple forcing entrance with the help of Israeli soldiers he knows exactly how incendiary these actions are. Later we stopped on the mount of olives looking down on the smart tombs of rich Jews and the older partially wrecked Arab graves, the marble for the Jewish graves had in many cases been acquired from the Arab graves which when the days of of Arab control had been acquired from Jewish graves and probably cycled back and forth over the years.When Christ returns he will ride a donkey down the hill through the graves ,the dead rising to great him and then through the golden gate which now leads into the mosque site and on to the 1st temple. Of course from the Arab point of view this is not going to happen, because. 1 The Christian Messiah is not coming back 2 If he does come back they have completely bricked the gate up , so he's not getting in. 3 If he gets in two large guards stationed inside the gate 24 /7 armed with clubs will beat his head in, I joke not. I could go on with other examples but these give a taste of the complexity and tensions of Jerusalem and the issues around the religious and political tensions. Interestingly, our more recent experience was quite different. Based in Haifa, we visited the usual sites of Jerusalem, including the Wailing Wall and Mount of Olives, about 5 years ago, and any tensions there were far less obvious. Our really pleasant Jewish guide had what appeared to be a genuinely friendly banter with our equally pleasant Arab coach driver. The two of them made a great team and we could have pretty much been in any European city. We felt really welcomed and were looked after well. It was clear they wanted us to spread the message and increase tourism from the west. I suspect it's the usual thing that the normal everyday people in their normal everyday situations rubbed along quite peacefully, and it's only the minority extremists who have to cause friction. Such a sad situation unravelling.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 13, 2023 6:29:30 GMT
Haifa and Jerusalem are, of course, the West Bank - not Gaza.
They've just had an IDF spokesman on R4 Today, talking about the impending reprisals and the instruction for every civilian to evacuate.
Basically the interview went...
You know that it's impossible for over a million people to evacuate in 24hrs, when so much is already rubble?
"I'm shocked nobody's condemning Hamas"
That's not what I asked. You know it's impossible?
"Hamas should have thought of that."
So what happens to those who couldn't evacuate in time?
"Not our problem."
<sigh>
The 1,200 murdered on Saturday, and the 2,500 killed in reprisals so far, will be pocket change soon.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 13, 2023 7:36:38 GMT
Haifa and Jerusalem are, of course, the West Bank - not Gaza. They've just had an IDF spokesman on R4 Today, talking about the impending reprisals and the instruction for every civilian to evacuate. Basically the interview went... You know that it's impossible for over a million people to evacuate in 24hrs, when so much is already rubble? "I'm shocked nobody's condemning Hamas"That's not what I asked. You know it's impossible? "Hamas should have thought of that."So what happens to those who couldn't evacuate in time? "Not our problem."<sigh> The 1,200 murdered on Saturday, and the 2,500 killed in reprisals so far, will be pocket change soon. I'm surprised its so few already. I don't know what size of munitions the Israelis are using but the photos look like some of the towns in Ukraine that have been pounded for months.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Oct 13, 2023 7:54:33 GMT
I was last in Israel and the West Bank in December 2019, primarily to be in Bethlehem in the West Bank on the 24th. We stayed away from areas near Gaza as Hamas were firing rockets in December 2019.
Haifa isn't in the West Bank, it is a port city in northern Israel. 3rd biggest city in Israel and quite a common base for tourists. Nothing like the West Bank.
A typical sanitised tourist trip to Israel or even parts of the West Bank is always going to give a limited view of what is going on. A visit to that area of the world will also vary a lot depending on what religion you are. We are not religious.
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Oct 13, 2023 17:58:04 GMT
My trip 30 odd years ago was odd, the main purpose was diving based in Eilat and into the Egpytian Sinai and though I liked the Israeli people it was strange. Ok Eilat is not Israel in the kind of way California is not the US. In Eilat I never saw an Orthodox Jew and the few Arabs were treated a bit like Aboriginal people or red Indians in the US I guess at the turn off the 20th century. They were marginal, ignored and semi invisible. Egyptians were belittled , the Sinai had been handed back to Egypt in return for peace but the open opinion was that they were incapable of developing any tourist future or anything else in it and it would be given back to Israel as uneconomic to keep. Got that wrong did they not.Understand at that time I dived at Ras Muhammad , toilet was a spade and walk, hotel was a sleeping bag on the beach and dinner walked up a wadi and came back as goat stew over an open fire. In those Arab villages that had western tourists to the north like Bethlehem we were welcome, money talks, else where it was tense. Our trip to Jerusalem was by organized bus , but one couple stayed on and returned under there own steam by hire car. They had checked that they would be safe, but safe is relative and though they were not directly threatened,the car was comprehensively stoned in various villages on the way.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 13, 2023 19:47:17 GMT
Haifa and Jerusalem are, of course, the West Bank - not Gaza. They've just had an IDF spokesman on R4 Today, talking about the impending reprisals and the instruction for every civilian to evacuate. Basically the interview went... You know that it's impossible for over a million people to evacuate in 24hrs, when so much is already rubble? "I'm shocked nobody's condemning Hamas"That's not what I asked. You know it's impossible? "Hamas should have thought of that."So what happens to those who couldn't evacuate in time? "Not our problem."<sigh> The 1,200 murdered on Saturday, and the 2,500 killed in reprisals so far, will be pocket change soon. . I don't know what size of munitions the Israelis are using but the photos look like some of the towns in Ukraine that have been pounded for months. It has always been an Israeli policy (and was still in force earlier this week) that before bombing a building in Gaza the Israeli authorities notify the Palestinians in advance so they can evacuate the building.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 13, 2023 20:56:34 GMT
Not sure if our world leaders follow this video, but it makes you wonder why the west are standing with Israel regardless.
A Guardian article
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 13, 2023 21:22:43 GMT
Haifa isn't in the West Bank, it is a port city in northern Israel. You are, of course, correct. I meant to say "near".
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 13, 2023 21:34:59 GMT
Not sure if our world leaders follow this video, but it makes you wonder why the west are standing with Israel regardless. A Guardian article I think you're right and I also think they've read the mood wrong. At least outside the US.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 13, 2023 21:40:19 GMT
I'm surprised its so few already. I don't know what size of munitions the Israelis are using but the photos look like some of the towns in Ukraine that have been pounded for months. It has always been an Israeli policy (and was still in force earlier this week) that before bombing a building in Gaza the Israeli authorities notify the Palestinians in advance so they can evacuate the building. Yes. Sometimes they do it with a "knock". aka a smaller warhead that's not (as) destructive. A very clear message to gtfo. From what I've read (ie limited) it's been quite successful over the years. In other words it's helped limit casualties. But... it's still "get punched in the face, if you ignore it get shot in the face". I wish I had some good ideas  .
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 13, 2023 22:41:03 GMT
Not sure if our world leaders follow this video, but it makes you wonder why the west are standing with Israel regardless. A Guardian article I think you're right and I also think they've read the mood wrong. At least outside the US. Yes, if only those 2000 Hamas Islamic terrorists had shown their contempt for Israelis/Jews by spitting at them.
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Oct 14, 2023 7:13:10 GMT
My tour took place on the day before the Sabbath, on the Sabbath we were free on our own .So part of the tour was being shown how to identify what streets were safe and unsafe to enter on the Sabbath. Orthodox Jews would not throw a rock out of their upper windows on your head on the Sabbath ,that's work and banned but lining up rocks on the window seal the day before and just tipping them over the edge was not work, perfectly acceptable a punishment for you breaking the Sabbath.
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