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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 14, 2023 7:54:17 GMT
Not sure if our world leaders follow this video, but it makes you wonder why the west are standing with Israel regardless. A Guardian article maybe because one small group of people, themselves from a particularly extreme "schism", does not a country make ? anymore than Jeremy Corbyn's or Ken Livingstone's anti-semitic tendencies should be seen as reflecting the UK as a whole. It does prompt me to bring out that phrase again though: ****ing religion
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2023 8:20:12 GMT
Bloody tourists.
"Oh, look, there's loads of people and a tractor all coming down this narrow street. Let's carry a large and unwieldy wooden thing in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION to everybody else."
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 14, 2023 9:10:59 GMT
Bloody tourists."Oh, look, there's loads of people and a tractor all coming down this narrow street. Let's carry a large and unwieldy wooden thing in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION to everybody else." Reminds me of a holiday I had in Brazil many years ago.
I was offered a chance to go on a bus trip around one of the favelas in Rio. I declined on the basis it was common practice for the occupants of the favela to while away the day shooting at buses that contained rich foreign tourists who were gawping at their poverty and squalor.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2023 9:39:09 GMT
Bloody tourists."Oh, look, there's loads of people and a tractor all coming down this narrow street. Let's carry a large and unwieldy wooden thing in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION to everybody else." Reminds me of a holiday I had in Brazil many years ago.
I was offered a chance to go on a bus trip around one of the favelas in Rio. I declined on the basis it was common practice for the occupants of the favela to while away the day shooting at buses that contained rich foreign tourists who were gawping at their poverty and squalor.
Yeh, I can see their point of view on that one. If any of us were unfortunate enough to have been born in Gaza, I think we might find Hamas's actions slightly more understandable, too... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 14, 2023 10:15:39 GMT
Reminds me of a holiday I had in Brazil many years ago.
I was offered a chance to go on a bus trip around one of the favelas in Rio. I declined on the basis it was common practice for the occupants of the favela to while away the day shooting at buses that contained rich foreign tourists who were gawping at their poverty and squalor.
Yeh, I can see their point of view on that one. If any of us were unfortunate enough to have been born in Gaza, I think we might find Hamas's actions slightly more understandable, too... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.Anyone who thinks that Hamas's actions are remotey acceptable deserve all they have coming to them.
But on the subject of freedom fighters, is there somebody out there that can help me with a question:
- Immediately after the end of WW2 Jordan, Israel and Lebanon did not exist, the land they currently occupy being part part of Palestine. There were a lot of Jewish people living in the area at the time and the powers that be thought it was a good idea to partition Palesting to give Jewish people a country of their own to live in (Israel).
- Head about 2,000 mile East, and at the same time there were lots of Muslim people living in India. Again the powers that be thought it was a good idea to partition the North and East of India so that these Muslim people had their own country to live in (Pakistan).
Question: was there a significant difference between the way Israel came into being and the way that Pakistan came into being? It appears to me that the only obvious difference was that in India the 2 sides sorted out their differences immediately (and over 1 million people died in the violence that followed partitioning), whereas in the middle East it's more like death by a thousand cuts.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2023 10:38:33 GMT
Question: was there a significant difference between the way Israel came into being and the way that Pakistan came into being? It appears to me that the only obvious difference was that in India the 2 sides sorted out their differences immediately (and over 1 million people died in the violence that followed partitioning), whereas in the middle East it's more like death by a thousand cuts. Yeh, because India-Pakistan is long since resolved... There's absolutely no ongoing issues or conflict there... www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-between-india-and-pakistanBoth came about through (the same) colonial power leaving. Palestine had been part of the Ottoman empire until WW1, then a British protectorate after the Sykes-Picot agreement, with the Balfour Declaration agreeing that it would be a Jewish homeland. WW2 just made a far stronger case for that homeland to be established *now*, after the Holocaust. Strange, you could almost think that men in London drawing lines on maps of far-distant places along religious lines didn't ever actually work very well. One big difference, of course, is that both groups lived together in India pre-partition, so there wasn't a massive population change through influx, just an internal relocation. Palestine, of course, did not have anything more than a fairly token Jewish population before the establishment of Israel. It was handed over with an expectation that the pre-existing populace would just make room for the incomers - who've then taken more and more of the space originally allocated to that pre-existing population, suppressing them in the process. The Jewish population of Palestine/Israel went from 8% in 1918, through 28% in 1936 to 82% in 1948, a peak of 89% in 1955, to the current 73%. Another big difference is that India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh) are actual sovereign states, equal in their autonomy. Palestine ceased to exist as a state in 1948 - and is just a couple of regions within Israel with very limited autonomy.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 14, 2023 10:50:43 GMT
From the human right perspective, people in the UK enjoy the freedom to choose / practice religion. Religion on its own doesn’t bring violence.
For those who know, the scriptures show plenty of references Jesus regularly rejected the way Pharisees lived in hypocrisy.
The bottom line, any form of violence against civilians is not okay. Not to mention, the majority people of people living in Gaza are suffering and fleeing their homeland.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2023 11:00:36 GMT
Religion on its own doesn’t bring violence. No, but religion has been used VERY frequently as an excuse and justification for violence and oppression.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 14, 2023 11:09:03 GMT
I disagree, it’s the weapons and people that brings massive destruction and violence.
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Post by brightspark on Oct 14, 2023 12:17:30 GMT
"Weapons and people bring about destruction and death." Reportedly the Israeli government had American foreward intelligence of the attack by Hamas. Hamas attack gave legitimacy for the Israeli Defence Force to go in strong into Gaza. The mistake was to underestimate the level of violence perpetrated by Hamas on mainly defencelsss non-combatants.
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Post by bernythedolt on Oct 14, 2023 13:06:06 GMT
Reminds me of a holiday I had in Brazil many years ago.
I was offered a chance to go on a bus trip around one of the favelas in Rio. I declined on the basis it was common practice for the occupants of the favela to while away the day shooting at buses that contained rich foreign tourists who were gawping at their poverty and squalor.
Yeh, I can see their point of view on that one. If any of us were unfortunate enough to have been born in Gaza, I think we might find Hamas's actions slightly more understandable, too... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.Armed thugs going in to deliberately murder children and babies? How could any right-thinking person ever consider such action 'understandable' at any level? No matter what has gone before. Could you behead a baby or burn children alive for your 'freedom from oppression'? These heinous acts of sheer evil and brutality must be recognised for what they are.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 14, 2023 13:23:06 GMT
Yeh, because India-Pakistan is long since resolved... There's absolutely no ongoing issues or conflict there... You mean apart from Kashmir, where as recently as 2021 they were shooting, shelling and killing each other across the line of control.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2023 13:28:22 GMT
Yeh, I can see their point of view on that one. If any of us were unfortunate enough to have been born in Gaza, I think we might find Hamas's actions slightly more understandable, too... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.Armed thugs going in to deliberately murder children and babies? How could any right-thinking person ever consider such action 'understandable' at any level? No matter what has gone before. Could you behead a baby or burn children alive for your 'freedom from oppression'? These heinous acts of sheer evil and brutality must be recognised for what they are. I didn't think the sentence was unclear when viewed in its entirety, but apparently I was wrong.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2023 13:28:45 GMT
Yeh, because India-Pakistan is long since resolved... There's absolutely no ongoing issues or conflict there... You mean apart from Kashmir, where as recently as 2021 they were shooting, shelling and killing each other across the line of control. Do I *really* need to explicitly flag sarcasm?
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 14, 2023 13:29:11 GMT
"Weapons and people bring about destruction and death." Reportedly the Israeli government had American foreward intelligence of the attack by Hamas. Hamas attack gave legitimacy for the Israeli Defence Force to go in strong into Gaza. The mistake was to underestimate the level of violence perpetrated by Hamas on mainly defencelsss non-combatants. Not exactly. There were two US intelligence assessments based on Israeli information that there was a likelihood of some level of escalation in Hamas attacks. They did not provide any hard indication of the scale or nature of the attacks that ultimately followed... nor is it clear if the assessments were shared with the Israelis The Eqyptian warnings were similar ... indicating escalation in tensions & weapons build up but nothing specific. None of this appears to be any different to the usual info flow that proceeds Hamas lobbing rockets at Israel in their hundreds. Israel seems to have been very complacent & focussed on the WB as a bigger danger given the interweaving of Palestinian & Israelis there.
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