michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Dec 20, 2023 21:20:36 GMT
What do you mean by ethnicity? Aren't you making your argument even harder by using that term which appears to be a mix of things. while some definitions of ethnicity may include "religion", that tends to be secondary to other things, or at least part of a long list of things that aren't related to religion. I don't think there is a useful alternative to 'ethnicity'. And indeed, there doesn't necessarily need to be. I think the vast majority of people tend to think of 'ethnicity' and 'religion' as two separate orthogonal characteristics. After all, as far as I'm concerned my 'ethnicity' is independent of my being an atheist. And on virtually every form I've ever encountered they are separate. This is also true of the UK Census: List of ethnic groupsI do note that list doesn't include "Jewish" as an ethnic group. But that is a matter of granularity. You can be White British and Jewish. And of course secular. Well since you mentioned the ONS, they clearly state here that they use religion as part of a person's ethnicitiy. www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/measuringequality/ethnicgroupnationalidentityandreligion#:~:text=These%20include%20country%20of%20birth,%2C%20and%20others%2C%20in%20combination.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 21, 2023 7:25:51 GMT
Ok what would you call it? Family were all Jewish, Speak Yiddish, always raised as Jewish. The Nazis didn't care if you worshiped as a Jew it was all about your family history and how you looked, ie, your ethnicity not your religion. Still happens today people are persecuted because of their origins not their actual religion. Be free to describe what that is in your opinion... I just don't understand you. Ethnicity includes religion. Ahh hang on a minute. Penny dropping. You're trying to use the word "race" but feel reluctant to do so for some unknown reason ? I'll let you figure it out my 'Jewish' cousin (by marriage) is fair skinned, blue eyed, blond hair, born in Austria, descended from many generations of people all living in that sort of area of Europe, identifying as Jewish, although many not practising Judaism, and she is happy to be called Jewish. She was brought up Christian was always very active in the Christian Church became a Deacon(?). I can use the word race if you like but the racial use of Jew usually implies peoples originating in the Roman areas around Palestine, birth of Jesus territory (of Arabic appearance), which as far back as I know her ancestry, she doesn't. Although quite possibly some of her ancient ancestors moved from there. You or I could convert to Judaism any time, but it wouldn't make us Jewish by descent or ethnically Jewish or racially Jewish or whatever term you would like to use. Belonging to the Jewish religion (or not) is separate to 'being Jewish', was the point I was trying to make. Badly apparently.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 21, 2023 9:07:32 GMT
'course, the actual objection here isn't that people are trying to stopping you, Oz, Michael, Berny, Ethel, Marky, Mogish from saying whatever the hell you want to whoever the hell you want... Fill yer boots. It's that you want others to be stopped from saying things to you that don't fit your preference. Why can't they have the same freedom as you? Why do a few friendly syllables different cause you such anguish? Indeed, what's so different between "happy holidays" and the phrase you just used, "seasons greetings"? Neither explicitly reference one particular winter celebration, but both can be taken to include it. A cynic might suggest it could be described as "snowflake cancel culture". My point is that any increasing and general use of "Happy Holidays" may eventually cause the extinction of "Merry Christmas" Don't be so ridiculous. "Seasons greetings" hasn't, has it? What's the difference? Things change. They always have, they always will. Riiiight. But the wholesale hijacking of the 19th century Germanic Christmas, introduced to the UK by a homesick Prince Albert, by rampant commercialism and gluttony is perfectly OK...? I mean, the whole "Christmas" thing is just a rebranding of the Aurelian's AD274 "Invincible Sun" (to round off Saturnalia) rebranding of the pagan/animistic winter solstice. I very much doubt one particular Jewish prophet really WAS born on 25/12/00. Even if you go with the incomplete and inconsistent Biblical reports, written centuries later, there's strong evidence to suggest March or April AD4-6. Apart from rebranding the winter solstice, the only backing for 25/12 is a third century writer adding nine months to a presumed annunciation on the spring solstice. (Should we also just accept the inherent link between a death designed to be slow and painful, and bunnies and chocolate?)
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 21, 2023 9:49:36 GMT
while some definitions of ethnicity may include "religion", that tends to be secondary to other things, or at least part of a long list of things that aren't related to religion. I don't think there is a useful alternative to 'ethnicity'. And indeed, there doesn't necessarily need to be. I think the vast majority of people tend to think of 'ethnicity' and 'religion' as two separate orthogonal characteristics. After all, as far as I'm concerned my 'ethnicity' is independent of my being an atheist. And on virtually every form I've ever encountered they are separate. This is also true of the UK Census: List of ethnic groupsI do note that list doesn't include "Jewish" as an ethnic group. But that is a matter of granularity. You can be White British and Jewish. And of course secular. Well since you mentioned the ONS, they clearly state here that they use religion as part of a person's ethnicitiy. www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/measuringequality/ethnicgroupnationalidentityandreligion#:~:text=These%20include%20country%20of%20birth,%2C%20and%20others%2C%20in%20combination. so you chosen to ignore the ethnic groups as used by the govt. in the last census ? which was the point I was making. Inlining from the link, below*. Note something about that ? No mention of religion. You can be Indian or Pakistani, but not Indian/Muslim or Indian/Hindu or Indian/Sikh. There is a reason for that: further down the same page: There has been an ethnicity question in the Census since 1991. It has been updated at every new Census since then. There are separate questions in the Census about national identity, religion and language. So as I originally said, while some definitions of ethnicity very clearly include religion (just look the word up in a dictionary), others do not.
In this case, the official record of ethnic group from the national census does not, and instead treats Religion as an orthogonal characteristic/attribute. Of course, if you want to personally identify your "ethnicity" as Indian/Hindu as a combined thing, one is entirely welcome to do so. No doubt especially in this era of 'self-identification' :-)
But usage of the term Ethnicity to identify with cultural and genetic lineage separately from religion, is an acceptable and common norm, and is officially recognised by embodiment in the UK National Census. And frankly, there isn't really another good single term which you could use in its place. *List of ethnic groupsThe main changes to the 2021 Census of England and Wales, compared with the previous Census, were:
the ‘Roma’ group was added under the ‘White’ ethnic group
a write-in response was added for the ‘Black African’ ethnic group
The ethnic groups were:
Asian or Asian British
Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Any other Asian background
Black, Black British, Caribbean or African
Caribbean
African
Any other Black, Black British, or Caribbean background
Mixed or multiple ethnic groups
White and Black Caribbean
White and Black African
White and Asian
Any other Mixed or multiple ethnic background
White
English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish or British
Irish
Gypsy or Irish Traveller
Roma
Any other White background
Other ethnic group
Arab
Any other ethnic group
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 21, 2023 12:42:28 GMT
In the true spirit of Seasonal Greetings/Happy Holidays and indeed particularly "Winterval", Happy Donghzi for those who celebrate it today. Especially those who identify as being of Chinese ethnicity.
And to those who celebrate it, Happy Yule for tomorrow. That is of course a call out to all the Pagans out there. And is not to be confused with Yuletide, which comes after and reflects the co-opting of the original festivals by Christians. Who have in essence hijacked a word that was originally shaped by a bunch of illegal Nordic immigrants.
Happy Holidays ! And Xmas !
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Dec 21, 2023 13:52:10 GMT
I know someone on this forum like numbers, so I searched my emails and checked how many season greetings as Happy holidays.
The results: 1 x UK P2P platform. 2 x EUR P2P platforms 1 x auction related services. 1 x florist 1 x exhitbtion centre
BTW, I have just learnt minor community may say "chahg sah-MAY-ach" between 7th-15th this month, which literally means “happy holiday".
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 21, 2023 16:31:01 GMT
Just received in today's post...
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Dec 21, 2023 16:32:40 GMT
Posh! Happiest … wow!
…. 🤔 it makes me wonder the receivers of their cards are not “happiest”
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 21, 2023 16:39:14 GMT
are you going to tell him their arse is on fire ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 21, 2023 17:07:23 GMT
(they're 'merkins, bless.)
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 21, 2023 18:09:38 GMT
Just seen something from a local community organisation...
If "Seasons Greetings" is acceptable, but "Happy Holidays" is totally unacceptable, where does "Wishing you a peaceful festive season" sit?
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 21, 2023 18:20:39 GMT
(they're 'merkins, bless.) Americans. Where Christmas is slowly being eradicated, as per the card you've just received. Aren't you iilustrating ozboy's point, that you labelled ridiculous? "happiest Holidays" is what's ridiculous here. I'm certain the UK majority still prefer to be greeted with Merry Christmas or Happy Christmas. That doesn't seem an unreasonable ask at Christmas time (but obviously for the contrarians here it is!). While "happiest Holidays" is not offensive per se, it just comes across as daft to water down the occasion like that, with a nonsensical substitute phrase. Next time you send a birthday card to your partner who's taken the day off work, why not just send a "happy Holiday" card instead? Would you send a "welcome Crotchfruit" card to the happy new parents? It grates, it makes no sense and it's generally more socially acceptable, for the majority, just to maintain the social norms.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 21, 2023 18:26:09 GMT
Just seen something from a local community organisation... If "Seasons Greetings" is acceptable, but "Happy Holidays" is totally unacceptable, where does "Wishing you a peaceful festive season" sit? That is a fair point. Two of those are longstanding, and there's really no need for the newcomer. Happy Holidays just grates, is demonstrably superfluous and makes less sense than the other two. And it's yet another horrible US import. It's the less welcome hippy relative who lives in a bus and rarely showers.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 21, 2023 18:50:15 GMT
Happiest Holidays reminds me of another pet miff. Kindest Regards. Why do so many sign off that way these days? Is "Kind Regards" now so lacking in generosity that only the superlative form can possibly suffice? First we had Regards, then somebody had to outdo that by making them Kind. Clearly that wasn't sufficient, so it's grown to Kindest. Whatever comes next? I think I'm becoming too old for this world.
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 21, 2023 19:23:33 GMT
My point is that any increasing and general use of "Happy Holidays" may eventually cause the extinction of "Merry Christmas", and that would be the erosion and erasure of a big part of our British history, traditions, culture and being. It doesn't say much for British Culture if it can be collapse if a few more people say "Happy Holidays". I think British culture is strong because it allows you to take the piss without fear of being taken seriously, wear union jack underpants and be thick skinned about other people who annoy you. Thumping your chests with rage at whatever wedge issue todays Daily Mail tried to manufacture is what threatens British culture.
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