agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 27, 2023 9:24:01 GMT
A 23yo woman in Florida was shot and killed by here 14yo brother over a row about Christmas presents. The 14yo was then shot by his 15yo brother (who apparently had his own gun).
Where will it all end
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 27, 2023 10:27:01 GMT
This is probably why the US never had a decades long-running soap opera like Eastenders. Thinking back, having studied Brookside at university, towards the end of its run we could name someone who had died in each of the houses in the close. Except Harry Cross' house. I don't think he capped anyone's ass. Nice one internet! brookside.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Deaths#On-Screen115 dead in 8 houses in 20 years.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Dec 27, 2023 11:14:36 GMT
I find the whole "I need a gun" attitude quite scary, but American friends find our gun control / gun laws unbelievable.
and the pictures you occasionally see of someone shopping with a rifle over the shoulder...
there are nearly as many guns in the US as people, but only 1 in 3 owns a gun, and I'm told the majority of gun owners only have one, this leaves the small minority ( possibly 10% with 5 or 6 ). yes i know people in the UK with multiple guns, mostly farms with a rifle and a shotgun. but in the US it's heavy duty weaponry held by some of these idiots.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2023 12:43:04 GMT
there are nearly as many guns in the US as people, but only 1 in 3 owns a gun, and I'm told the majority of gun owners only have one, this leaves the small minority ( possibly 10% with 5 or 6 ) Oh, no - it's far loopier than that... 42% of households have one or more guns, according to a 2021 survey. 393m guns, in a country of 331m people. Average of 2.6 people/household, so 127.3m households... ...which means the 63.65m gun-owning households each have an average of 6.17 guns... The UK has about 1.6m guns owned by 540,000 firearms and shotgun certificate holders, so about 3 each on average.
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Post by lotus_eater on Dec 27, 2023 14:06:13 GMT
I find the whole "I need a gun" attitude quite scary, but American friends find our gun control / gun laws unbelievable. and the pictures you occasionally see of someone shopping with a rifle over the shoulder... there are nearly as many guns in the US as people, but only 1 in 3 owns a gun, and I'm told the majority of gun owners only have one, this leaves the small minority ( possibly 10% with 5 or 6 ). yes i know people in the UK with multiple guns, mostly farms with a rifle and a shotgun. but in the US it's heavy duty weaponry held by some of these idiots. There are actually more guns than people, 393m as of a 2018 survey, and there are probably more now with everything that's happening over there. One in 3 Americans "admit" to owning a gun, and almost half admit to living in a house under the protection of a gun. It's very easy to get a gun in most states (although gun shops have waiting periods and criminal history checks), second hand guns are not policed nearly as well, and they can be purchased (legally) from many websites if you know where to look (the second hand market is 10 times bigger than the new market). Most second hand gun purchased do not need registration in any way, so you can figure out what the "real" percentage of people are that own guns might be. Europeans will likley never understand USA gun laws, and vice versa. Personally I'm from the UK, but lived in the USA for 25 years (Arizona, where many people carry guns). I had the "crazy ass gun carrying Americans" mentality for about the first 10 years I was there. Right up until I purchased a house a little bit out of town on a large lot. Got into a heated discussion about guns with a friend, from which I took one paragraph away from: he said "think about this, if someone breaks into your house, they are 100% going to have a gun. The nearest police station is 15 minutes away. Explain to me how you are going to protect your family". The more I lay in bed at night thinking about this, the more it played on me. Every sound, creak etc. Just thinking how helpless I would be if some nutter broke in with a gun (and let's face it, there are a lot of them). Did you know that most gun crimes in America never get solved? In a robbery, you are more likely to get shot so there are no witnesses, should there be contact between the homeowner and a robber. I ended up buying a couple of guns (semi-automatic and pump-action shot gun) and getting special training. I never had to use a gun in anger (thank goodness), but I slept a whole lot better knowing they there. Did get a few rabbits though :-) As a side note, my neighbor did get broken into, and he did have a gun. We are still friends and he didn't lose anything, so you can probably figure out what happened there. Now, all that being said, I am still not a gun advocate (at all). I live in Portugal now where guns are just as rare as the are in the UK, and I feel very safe here and I don't want (or would have) a gun in the house. I do however understand that no matter how many people don't like it, or complain about it, it will likley be a long time before anyone is able to take guns away from Americans. It is part of the constitution, part of life over there (in most states), and more importantly, part of an ingrained distrust of government dating back to 1776 (in which of course the UK played a big part of). Even if they outlawed guns altogether, they would never get many of them as most Americans have them stashed in a hiding place or a safe, or buried in the yard, and they are not likley to hand over their guns to any government agency they don't trust. That is just my opinion from 25 years of living there. American attitudes go like "if they outlaw guns, only criminals will have them", and that is an attitude that will take a while (probably generations) to change. Just my opinion, don't want to argue with anyone for or against.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2023 14:17:01 GMT
Europeans will likley never understand USA gun laws, and vice versa. Personally I'm from the UK, but lived in the USA for 25 years (Arizona, where many people carry guns). I had the "crazy ass gun carrying Americans" mentality for about the first 10 years I was there. Right up until I purchased a house a little bit out of town on a large lot. Got into a heated discussion about guns with a friend, from which I took one paragraph away from: he said "think about this, if someone breaks into your house, they are 100% going to have a gun. The nearest police station is 15 minutes away. Explain to me how you are going to protect your family". The more I lay in bed at night thinking about this, the more it played on me. Every sound, creak etc. In the unlikely event it did happen, I would suggest you're much more likely to be shot by the (prepared, likely wired, definitely gun-familiar) bad guy than you (bleary, scared, likely gun-unfamiliar) are to shoot them. Also - they're more likely to shoot you if you start waving a gun at them than if you just stick your hands up and say "The cash is on the side, next to the car keys. Help yourself, it's all insured, I don't care.". Also, if you have a gun, you're far more likely to accidentally shoot your kid who just got up to go for a glass of water...
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Post by lotus_eater on Dec 27, 2023 14:23:17 GMT
Europeans will likley never understand USA gun laws, and vice versa. Personally I'm from the UK, but lived in the USA for 25 years (Arizona, where many people carry guns). I had the "crazy ass gun carrying Americans" mentality for about the first 10 years I was there. Right up until I purchased a house a little bit out of town on a large lot. Got into a heated discussion about guns with a friend, from which I took one paragraph away from: he said "think about this, if someone breaks into your house, they are 100% going to have a gun. The nearest police station is 15 minutes away. Explain to me how you are going to protect your family". The more I lay in bed at night thinking about this, the more it played on me. Every sound, creak etc. In the unlikely event it did happen, I would suggest you're much more likely to be shot by the (prepared, likely wired, definitely gun-familiar) bad guy than you (bleary, scared, likely gun-unfamiliar) are to shoot them. Also - they're more likely to shoot you if you start waving a gun at them than if you just stick your hands up and say "The cash is on the side, next to the car keys. Help yourself, it's all insured, I don't care.". Also, if you have a gun, you're far more likely to accidentally shoot your kid who just got up to go for a glass of water... This opinion is based on your how many years living in this environment? If you never lived in the environment, you'll never understand (as I said).
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 27, 2023 14:41:45 GMT
In the unlikely event it did happen, I would suggest you're much more likely to be shot by the (prepared, likely wired, definitely gun-familiar) bad guy than you (bleary, scared, likely gun-unfamiliar) are to shoot them. Also - they're more likely to shoot you if you start waving a gun at them than if you just stick your hands up and say "The cash is on the side, next to the car keys. Help yourself, it's all insured, I don't care.". Also, if you have a gun, you're far more likely to accidentally shoot your kid who just got up to go for a glass of water... This opinion is based on your how many years living in this environment? If you never lived in the environment, you'll never understand (as I said). I can understand the comfort of feeling if I have a gun I'm on equal (or maybe better) terms than an intruder. On the other hand it hasn't happened yet and where do I keep a (has to be) loaded and quickly available weapon safely in the house car or wherever, so that no child, friend or unexpected visitor doesn't get shot or find the gun and accidentally fire it, or any other mishap. If I was living in the US I suspect I would decide to have a gun, when in Rome....
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2023 14:44:26 GMT
In the unlikely event it did happen, I would suggest you're much more likely to be shot by the (prepared, likely wired, definitely gun-familiar) bad guy than you (bleary, scared, likely gun-unfamiliar) are to shoot them. Also - they're more likely to shoot you if you start waving a gun at them than if you just stick your hands up and say "The cash is on the side, next to the car keys. Help yourself, it's all insured, I don't care.". Also, if you have a gun, you're far more likely to accidentally shoot your kid who just got up to go for a glass of water... This opinion is based on your how many years living in this environment? If you never lived in the environment, you'll never understand (as I said). It's based on simple reality. It's three in the morning, you've got somebody wandering around in your house who expects you to be there... while you've just been woken by a creak and don't know what's going on. I know who's more likely to get the first shot on target.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 27, 2023 14:48:45 GMT
This opinion is based on your how many years living in this environment? If you never lived in the environment, you'll never understand (as I said). It's based on simple reality. It's three in the morning, you've got somebody wandering around in your house who expects you to be there... while you've just been woken by a creak and don't know what's going on. I know who's more likely to get the first shot on target. But you might get the second before your wife and children get shot. And you have the advantage of knowing the geography of the house.
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Post by lotus_eater on Dec 27, 2023 14:58:14 GMT
This opinion is based on your how many years living in this environment? If you never lived in the environment, you'll never understand (as I said). I can understand the comfort of feeling if I have a gun I'm on equal (or maybe better) terms than an intruder. On the other hand it hasn't happened yet and where do I keep a (has to be) loaded and quickly available weapon safely in the house car or wherever, so that no child, friend or unexpected visitor doesn't get shot or find the gun and accidentally fire it, or any other mishap. If I was living in the US I suspect I would decide to have a gun, when in Rome.... And that's exactly it. If you have had some formal gun training, you're probably better equipped than the criminal who (probably) hasn't. And, if you hear him in the house, you are possibly in a better position to take over the situation and subdue him (rather than shoot him). If you don't have a gun, you'd better hope the person who broke into your house is a "nice guy". It's fine for people who've never lived in an environment where most (probably all) criminals have guns. I used to be of the mind "put your hands up and pray they feel sorry for you, take your stuff and trust you'll never ID them", but the fact is, if you catch a glimpse of them, or hear them, they are more likley to "kill the evidence" than not. Personally, after living in that environment for 25+ years, I want some kind of self defense that's at least on par with what the robber has. That's just me, everyone has their limits. Oh, and you can get gun safes that actually fit into the side of your bed, quickly accessible by a code. I always kept my guns in one of these safes.
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Post by lotus_eater on Dec 27, 2023 15:00:19 GMT
This opinion is based on your how many years living in this environment? If you never lived in the environment, you'll never understand (as I said). It's based on simple reality. It's three in the morning, you've got somebody wandering around in your house who expects you to be there... while you've just been woken by a creak and don't know what's going on. I know who's more likely to get the first shot on target. And you're going to hide in a closet & hope they don't find you? Or what, you're going to try and "nice guy" them into submission. Hope they'll just take your money and leave you alone? That's a hell of a gamble for someone who's never been in that environment, and your choice. Everyone to their own. I would like to have the capability to defend myself.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2023 15:14:40 GMT
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Post by lotus_eater on Dec 27, 2023 15:43:21 GMT
So, just so I understand then, you are saying, if you lived in Arizona, in a house out of town, with your family (assuming you have one, because if you don't, that's another thing you'll never understand and are not in any position to comment on), you would be happy to exist there, with no way to defend your property or your family at all? And if someone broke in, and your alarm system was going off (which means everyone is on edge), your kids are screaming, your wife is in tears. Then exactly how would you handle that? Would you "nice guy" them in to leaving? Or do you think you could "converse" them into giving up and handing you their gun? Do you think the "cops" are going to break in and save you? It is not like the UK there (and that's what people who have never lived there just cannot understand). If someone breaks into your property, you have the legal right to defend it. I used to think very similar to you when I lived in the UK as I said in the original post. Heck I might have been just as naïve as you and made the same points. But it's just different when you're living it, I don't care how clever you think you are. Again, you really can't comment because you've never been in the situation. You're a backseat driver at best. You can preach all you like about guns and their evils (which most of I agree with actually, if there was a choice I prefer no guns at all), but until you've been in a situation, you really are in no position to comment intelligently about it. As I said in the original post, this is just my opinion (based on personal experience) so I'm not going to argue about it further.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2023 15:51:43 GMT
Well, have YOU been in that situation? No, not just living somewhere where it might perhaps be possible... but actually faced with that burglar at 3am?
I'll just reiterate - those are actual national statistics for the US. And, yes, I do put more weight on those than on somebody trying to sign you up to their own cultural paranoia.
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