michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 19, 2024 20:08:30 GMT
It's quite a stretch, though, to compare an otherwise innocent grandmother, who's never had a single brush with the law until a sudden moment of frustration and rage brought on by learning of three innocent children being stabbed to death, (following which she and her husband tried unsuccessfully to delete her foolish social media post), with a fanatic who's been calling for the deaths of thousands of innocent citizens over many, many years and who has no intention of ever letting up. Very different levels of nastiness. I suspect most agree they both deserve punishment. It's the level of punishment meted out to the former (15 months imprisonment for a first offence) which seems somewhat OTT to many. Incitement used to mean some charismatic leader standing up in front of an audience of hundreds or thousands, Hitler-esque, and suggesting they all do something violent like riot. Now it seems a few comments amounts to the same thing. Morally it does not and in my view freedom of speech should take absolute priority unless there is a clear plot to murder one or more people. Do people here think Starmer should create a new Thought Police Ministry?
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 19, 2024 20:41:53 GMT
It's quite a stretch, though, to compare an otherwise innocent grandmother, who's never had a single brush with the law until a sudden moment of frustration and rage brought on by learning of three innocent children being stabbed to death, (following which she and her husband tried unsuccessfully to delete her foolish social media post), with a fanatic who's been calling for the deaths of thousands of innocent citizens over many, many years and who has no intention of ever letting up. Very different levels of nastiness. I suspect most agree they both deserve punishment. It's the level of punishment meted out to the former (15 months imprisonment for a first offence) which seems somewhat OTT to many. Incitement used to mean some charismatic leader standing up in front of an audience of hundreds or thousands, Hitler-esque, and suggesting they all do something violent like riot. Now it seems a few comments amounts to the same thing. Morally it does not and in my view freedom of speech should take absolute priority unless there is a clear plot to murder one or more people. Do people here think Starmer should create a new Thought Police Ministry? When you say " used to mean", what do you mean by that ? What sort of timeframe are you talking about? Since you reference Starmer, presumably you mean "until recently"? As a matter of fact - i.e. legal reality not personal opinion/perception - the bolded line is simply cobblers. Person A can encourage person B to break into and hot wire the car across the road. That is incitement to commit a crime - or "encouragement" / "assisting" as it is now more generally referred to. No Nazi salutes needed. No Nurnberg rallies required. No hundreds of thousands of people. Just Bob encouraging Jack to nick that vehicle. Or to go kick the c*** out of Faisal. Or set fire to a mosque/asylum hotel. EDIT: On the point about "clear plot to murder". That would be 'conspiracy to commit' a crime, not incitement/encouragement. Different things, different offences, different thresholds. BTW, the concept and protection of free speech is pretty deeply embedded. The critical point is that of "harm". The old adage "my right to swing my fist stops at your face" is kind of in play here.
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 19, 2024 21:28:27 GMT
It's quite a stretch, though, to compare an otherwise innocent grandmother, who's never had a single brush with the law until a sudden moment of frustration and rage brought on by learning of three innocent children being stabbed to death, (following which she and her husband tried unsuccessfully to delete her foolish social media post), with a fanatic who's been calling for the deaths of thousands of innocent citizens over many, many years and who has no intention of ever letting up. Very different levels of nastiness. I suspect most agree they both deserve punishment. It's the level of punishment meted out to the former (15 months imprisonment for a first offence) which seems somewhat OTT to many. Incitement used to mean some charismatic leader standing up in front of an audience of hundreds or thousands, Hitler-esque, and suggesting they all do something violent like riot. Now it seems a few comments amounts to the same thing. Morally it does not and in my view freedom of speech should take absolute priority unless there is a clear plot to murder one or more people. Do people here think Starmer should create a new Thought Police Ministry? Interesting piece by Lord Frost in the Telegraph last week. I think he would agree with you. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/15/we-can-no-longer-say-that-britain-is-a-free-country/ "Laws criminalising certain opinions are now having a chilling effect on freedom of expression in the UK""If you comment on different crime levels among migrant communities in the UK, or note that most of those on small boats are young men leaving one safe country for another, are you making a political point, or “stirring up” racial hatred?" "We are heading towards a real crisis. There has always been some censorship in Britain, more’s the pity, but until recently it was artistic and cultural, not political. We prided ourselves on being a free country in which we could speak freely. We simply cannot say that now. We are, in fact, all vulnerable. Say the wrong thing in the wrong way at the wrong moment, and any of us might find the police at our door."Non-paywalled version here.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 19, 2024 21:48:41 GMT
yes 2 tier Policing - the Met don't even caution for minor drugs offences, in rural areas they do, and people go to jail for something that isn't prosecuted elsewhere. That is clearly 2 tier policing. In this example In the met it doesn't even get to the CPS.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 19, 2024 23:09:40 GMT
Incitement used to mean some charismatic leader standing up in front of an audience of hundreds or thousands, Hitler-esque, and suggesting they all do something violent like riot. Now it seems a few comments amounts to the same thing. Morally it does not and in my view freedom of speech should take absolute priority unless there is a clear plot to murder one or more people. Do people here think Starmer should create a new Thought Police Ministry? Interesting piece by Lord Frost in the Telegraph last week. I think he would agree with you. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/15/we-can-no-longer-say-that-britain-is-a-free-country/ "Laws criminalising certain opinions are now having a chilling effect on freedom of expression in the UK""If you comment on different crime levels among migrant communities in the UK, or note that most of those on small boats are young men leaving one safe country for another, are you making a political point, or “stirring up” racial hatred?" "We are heading towards a real crisis. There has always been some censorship in Britain, more’s the pity, but until recently it was artistic and cultural, not political. We prided ourselves on being a free country in which we could speak freely. We simply cannot say that now. We are, in fact, all vulnerable. Say the wrong thing in the wrong way at the wrong moment, and any of us might find the police at our door."Non-paywalled version here. This unelected peabrain can't see the irony if the Conservative awarding obligations to the police to arrest people for peaceful protest that even the police did not want.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 20, 2024 11:37:08 GMT
Drugs should be legal as should any act that doesn't harm anyone else such as waggling ones tongue or fingers over a keyboard. that's a very ultra left wing liberal view michaelc So is nationalising some of the utilities and rail as is having well funded state services. Actually though, such a policy is also favoured by the libertarian Right. Do we all have to fit into one box?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 20, 2024 13:30:11 GMT
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 20, 2024 15:28:49 GMT
Thats 2 tier Justice IE when it gets to the courts We have 2 tier policing For example Harry Miller - The infamous "we need to check your thinking" www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCxQI9U_xHE . Humberside police can investigate Someones tweets yet 9/10 times for burglary, car theft etc the best you get is a crime number so you can claim on insurance. Police priorities are wrong the Colston Statue :- Superintendent Andy Bennett of Avon and Somerset Police stated that they had made a "tactical decision" not to intervene and had allowed the statue to be toppled, citing a concern that stopping the act could have led to further violence and a riot. Compare that to heavy handed policing of the disorder with police horses charging into crowds, and indeed I've witnessed the same at football matches with very heavy handed policing of supporters quietly and peacefully walking to the stadium. The Anti HAMAS protestor who was assaulted, and arrested for assault, only when the police were shown evidence of him being assaulted was he released, and the police claimed they had arrested him for his protection - think on that, you are threatened or attacked and the Police arrest you not the perpetrators.
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jo
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Post by jo on Aug 20, 2024 15:45:29 GMT
The people in my immediate orbit are presently having a crisis of reconciliation that the supposedly centre-left government they've just elected is more right wing than the supposedly centre right-government they've just booted out. It's a lolz to witness.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 20, 2024 15:57:03 GMT
Thats 2 tier Justice IE when it gets to the courts We have 2 tier policing Sorry - are you complaining that forces can set their own priorities for their limited resources, and can react to circumstances facing them?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 20, 2024 16:00:23 GMT
Thats 2 tier Justice IE when it gets to the courts We have 2 tier policing For example Harry Miller - The infamous "we need to check your thinking" www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCxQI9U_xHE . Humberside police can investigate Someones tweets yet 9/10 times for burglary, car theft etc the best you get is a crime number so you can claim on insurance. Police priorities are wrong the Colston Statue :- Superintendent Andy Bennett of Avon and Somerset Police stated that they had made a "tactical decision" not to intervene and had allowed the statue to be toppled, citing a concern that stopping the act could have led to further violence and a riot. Compare that to heavy handed policing of the disorder with police horses charging into crowds, and indeed I've witnessed the same at football matches with very heavy handed policing of supporters quietly and peacefully walking to the stadium. The Anti HAMAS protestor who was assaulted, and arrested for assault, only when the police were shown evidence of him being assaulted was he released, and the police claimed they had arrested him for his protection - think on that, you are threatened or attacked and the Police arrest you not the perpetrators My Nextdoor social media feed of some of my (largely distant) negibhours is full of stories like today's where 3 teens were videod kicking an elederly person's door in. That person lives alone and the police didn't respond. Anecdotal I know but it does feel like there is too much priority given to ridiculous keyboard warrior crimes than real ones.
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 20, 2024 16:26:49 GMT
that's a very ultra left wing liberal view michaelc So is nationalising some of the utilities and rail as is having well funded state services. Actually though, such a policy is also favoured by the libertarian Right. Do we all have to fit into one box?Not as far as I'm concerned: but the ultra liberal / lefty label is one bandied round on here quite a lot. And not by me. And rarely does it seem to be used as a term of endearment.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 20, 2024 19:21:29 GMT
Thats 2 tier Justice IE when it gets to the courts We have 2 tier policing Sorry - are you complaining that forces can set their own priorities for their limited resources, and can react to circumstances facing them? No In many cases the Police are setting the priorities not the public, the public want burglary assault etc investigated as a priority over someone who says that they are upset by a comment made online. even similar cases get different treatment eg Madeleine McCann Vs Ben Needham
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 20, 2024 20:31:24 GMT
It's quite a stretch, though, to compare an otherwise innocent grandmother, who's never had a single brush with the law until a sudden moment of frustration and rage brought on by learning of three innocent children being stabbed to death, (following which she and her husband tried unsuccessfully to delete her foolish social media post), with a fanatic who's been calling for the deaths of thousands of innocent citizens over many, many years and who has no intention of ever letting up. Very different levels of nastiness. I suspect most agree they both deserve punishment. It's the level of punishment meted out to the former (15 months imprisonment for a first offence) which seems somewhat OTT to many. Incitement used to mean some charismatic leader standing up in front of an audience of hundreds or thousands, Hitler-esque, and suggesting they all do something violent like riot. Now it seems a few comments amounts to the same thing. Morally it does not and in my view freedom of speech should take absolute priority unless there is a clear plot to murder one or more people. Do people here think Starmer should create a new Thought Police Ministry? They don't have to now, any idiot can post their vitriol on social media and it gets reposted by the echo chamber so the audience can be millions. People like that woman need to realise that posting an incitement to blow up a mosque full of people could easily be read and acted on by people already primed for violent action. If it had been a young male (law abiding) Muslim (in a moment of frustration and rage) inciting people to blow up a church full of people, what would we think? I don't think age or sex is an excuse. I don't know her so I don't know if she is an 'innocent grandmother' but I don' know any grandmothers who would say, let alone post, anything so vile.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 20, 2024 21:21:28 GMT
Sorry - are you complaining that forces can set their own priorities for their limited resources, and can react to circumstances facing them? No In many cases the Police are setting the priorities not the public ITYM "yes"... They happened in completely different countries a quarter of a century apart.
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