09dolphin
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Post by 09dolphin on Sept 14, 2024 7:35:46 GMT
I wonder why the government didn't either put the winter fuel allowance into peoples taxable income (as the state pension is) or only pay it to people who pay no tax at all as their income is too low.
The latter seems more equitable to me.
However I think that if the national minimum wage is the minimum required to live on I really would like to know why pensioners are considered to be able to live on less than half that,
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 14, 2024 7:44:47 GMT
However I think that if the national minimum wage is the minimum required to live on I really would like to know why pensioners are considered to be able to live on less than half that, ...or indeed JSA. Or student funding. Or... Sounds like an argument for UBI to me.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Sept 14, 2024 13:51:32 GMT
I wonder why the government didn't either put the winter fuel allowance into peoples taxable income (as the state pension is) or only pay it to people who pay no tax at all as their income is too low. The latter seems more equitable to me. However I think that if the national minimum wage is the minimum required to live on I really would like to know why pensioners are considered to be able to live on less than half that, and as I've posted before your entitlement to JSA etc stops the day you hit 66, and your pay would also stop the day you retire, however state pension can be up to 5 weeks to come through. many think it will be paid the same week and it isn't. For someone on JSA and I know someone who was in this position her last payment was for about 5 days and she didn't get her state pension for over 4 weeks. When you have been on benefits some time savings etc are depleted and people will seriously struggle
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Post by moonraker on Sept 14, 2024 14:29:48 GMT
I wonder why the government didn't either put the winter fuel allowance into peoples taxable income (as the state pension is) or only pay it to people who pay no tax at all as their income is too low. The latter seems more equitable to me. That first thought had occurred to me as well, though the saving would have been less.
I accept that I can afford not to have any allowance at all, but am just a little conscious that I'm approaching 80, which appears to be the threshold for when we oldies need to take more care about keeping warm, and I'm also conscious that my blood-thinning medication makes me more susceptible to the cold.
As a sole occupant of my house, I would be far less sanguine about losing the 25% discount on council tax (the PM has declined to rule this out) as I use considerably less council services than next door with its three adults.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Sept 14, 2024 15:20:24 GMT
I wonder why the government didn't either put the winter fuel allowance into peoples taxable income (as the state pension is) or only pay it to people who pay no tax at all as their income is too low. The latter seems more equitable to me. That first thought had occurred to me as well, though the saving would have been less.
I accept that I can afford not to have any allowance at all, but am just a little conscious that I'm approaching 80, which appears to be the threshold for when we oldies need to take more care about keeping warm, and I'm also conscious that my blood-thinning medication makes me more susceptible to the cold.
As a sole occupant of my house, I would be far less sanguine about losing the 25% discount on council tax (the PM has declined to rule this out) as I use considerably less council services than next door with its three adults.
I have to agree, there's a house up from me with 3 generations of adults in it, If they do away with the single discount then there needs to be a premium for 3/4/5 or more adults.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 15, 2024 7:41:39 GMT
As a sole occupant of my house, I would be far less sanguine about losing the 25% discount on council tax (the PM has declined to rule this out) as I use considerably less council services than next door with its three adults.
I have to agree, there's a house up from me with 3 generations of adults in it, If they do away with the single discount then there needs to be a premium for 3/4/5 or more adults. So... tax the adults not the property?
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Sept 15, 2024 9:20:27 GMT
I have to agree, there's a house up from me with 3 generations of adults in it, If they do away with the single discount then there needs to be a premium for 3/4/5 or more adults. So... tax the adults not the property? Of course..... a kind of Poll Tax. But we shouldn't call it that; maybe it could be called a "Charge on the Community" or something like that 
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 15, 2024 9:26:37 GMT
So... tax the adults not the property? Of course..... a kind of Poll Tax. But we shouldn't call it that; maybe it could be called a "Charge on the Community" or something like that But of course that takes no account of ability to pay. So, perhaps, an additional income tax that goes to the local authority?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 15, 2024 14:34:19 GMT
Why not abolish council tax all together and put up other central taxes as required then fund the councils entirely from central government.
That would be one more tax removed in a crazily complex taxation system.
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 15, 2024 14:49:27 GMT
Why not abolish council tax all together and put up other central taxes as required then fund the councils entirely from central government. That would be one more tax removed in a crazily complex taxation system. The normal argument is that local taxation gives greater accountability of local govt. to their direct electorate.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Sept 16, 2024 9:52:47 GMT
I wonder why the government didn't either put the winter fuel allowance into peoples taxable income (as the state pension is) or only pay it to people who pay no tax at all as their income is too low. The latter seems more equitable to me. That first thought had occurred to me as well, though the saving would have been less.
I accept that I can afford not to have any allowance at all, but am just a little conscious that I'm approaching 80, which appears to be the threshold for when we oldies need to take more care about keeping warm, and I'm also conscious that my blood-thinning medication makes me more susceptible to the cold.
As a sole occupant of my house, I would be far less sanguine about losing the 25% discount on council tax (the PM has declined to rule this out) as I use considerably less council services than next door with its three adults.
this shows just how bad our binary system on benefits is because he is £2 over the limit for pension credit he loses £500 a month
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Sept 16, 2024 10:15:59 GMT
On paper, it sounds harsh. The reality, did he expect government help for winter fuel payment when he contributed the pension pot?
I guess not.
Is there any way this new government can help so these fragile people won’t die during winter because they decide to “save” money on energy bill?
TBH, we don’t know how many “fragile” pensioners qualified for winter fuel payments and spend money on others things so they die quickly, like cigarettes, booze etc
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 16, 2024 10:59:41 GMT
On paper, it sounds harsh. The reality, did he expect government help for winter fuel payment when he contributed the pension pot?I guess not. Is there any way this new government can help so these fragile people won’t die during winter because they decide to “save” money on energy bill? TBH, we don’t know how many “fragile” pensioners qualified for winter fuel payments and spend money on others things so they die quickly, like cigarettes, booze etc The primary issue here is the use of the Pension Credit threshold as a binary cut off for lots of benefits. He says he is losing £500 p/m for being £2 p/w over. There is no analysis to back that figure up, and it may not be accurate. But nonetheless when you add up what help he might otherwise get it is likely to be substantial. That number might even be realistic because it sounds like there is rent/housing help he might otherwise be eligible for (though that raises questions). Anyway, my point here is that if that £500/m is taken at face value, the WFP element is at most 5% of that loss. So while it importantly highlights the problem, the WFP itself is not really the issue. Its the operation of a binary clip level with no taper for a bunch of benefits for those of pensionable age. My MIL is in an almost identical position w.r.t. being only a few £'s over. And all because during working life her and her husband paid higher voluntary NI contributions for her to help secure a better pension.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 16, 2024 11:21:43 GMT
On paper, it sounds harsh. The reality, did he expect government help for winter fuel payment when he contributed the pension pot?I guess not. The primary issue here is the use of the Pension Credit threshold as a binary cut off for lots of benefits. He says he is losing £500 p/m for being £2 p/w over. There is no analysis to back that figure up, and it may not be accurate. But nonetheless when you add up what help he might otherwise get it is likely to be substantial. That number might even be realistic because it sounds like there is rent/housing help he might otherwise be eligible for (though that raises questions). Anyway, my point here is that if that £500/m is taken at face value, the WFP element is at most 5% of that loss. So while it importantly highlights the problem, the WFP itself is not really the issue. Its the operation of a binary clip level with no taper for a bunch of benefits for those of pensionable age. Unlikely that WFA was expected, since it was only introduced by Blair in 1997. Also, it's dropped in real-world value by 50% since 2010. And, yes, the PC line is a big cut-off for a lot of things. WFA is, as you say, only a tiny part. But the real problem is that over 750k pensioners are believed to be eligible for PC, but don't claim... If the coverage of WFA gets them to investigate, then excellent news.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Sept 16, 2024 13:01:46 GMT
The primary issue here is the use of the Pension Credit threshold as a binary cut off for lots of benefits. He says he is losing £500 p/m for being £2 p/w over. There is no analysis to back that figure up, and it may not be accurate. But nonetheless when you add up what help he might otherwise get it is likely to be substantial. That number might even be realistic because it sounds like there is rent/housing help he might otherwise be eligible for (though that raises questions). Anyway, my point here is that if that £500/m is taken at face value, the WFP element is at most 5% of that loss. So while it importantly highlights the problem, the WFP itself is not really the issue. Its the operation of a binary clip level with no taper for a bunch of benefits for those of pensionable age. Unlikely that WFA was expected, since it was only introduced by Blair in 1997. Also, it's dropped in real-world value by 50% since 2010. And, yes, the PC line is a big cut-off for a lot of things. WFA is, as you say, only a tiny part. But the real problem is that over 750k pensioners are believed to be eligible for PC, but don't claim... If the coverage of WFA gets them to investigate, then excellent news. agreed my LA uses PC as a cut off, get PC get housing benefit don't get PC ( or UC etc ) you don't get any help. I do wonder of the Christmas bonus should go it must cost nearly as much to administer as it pays out. LOL a friend showed me a post yesterday by someone who is about to retire and thought he would get his UC and his state pension. I've also seen the one on the Guy who won £80,000 on the lottery and blew it in 2 months and is complaining that they stopped his benefits because he "deliberately deprived himself of capital"
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