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Post by batchoy on Jan 16, 2014 8:28:07 GMT
This proposition raises an ethical question for us as lenders. Reading the comments on this thread, and the (unprecedented number of ?) questions on the loan listing its hard not to conclude the business plan (in so far as we know it) for this fishery / tourist attraction is going to be very difficult to pull off successfully. Its unlikely any bank would give serious consideration to this. So is it ethical for us to provide a loan to this couple to facilitate the purchase of the land when there is a significant chance they will end up worse off financially in the long term than the "do nothing" option ? Assuming the security hiccup can be resolved, from our perspective the loan is really an equity release from the Wirral property, but with additional security via the Pembrokeshire land. I'm not convinced our perception of the un-viability of the fishery business plan should detract from the assessment of the security for this loan, but I've struggled with this point on other loans. I think I'm in on this one ... but the borrowers probably should be being advised to walk away. As you say there is more of an ethical dimension to this one, but there is also the question of how much you rely on the security for the loan in relation to the borrower's perceived ability to settle the loan. With big question marks over the viability of business plan and the quality of the valuation for the land my personal feeling is that this one is overly dependent on the securities and as a result I am probably going to skip it.
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Post by andrewholgate on Jan 16, 2014 9:11:55 GMT
[mod hat on] After extensive moderation of this post and it's re-quotes to remove the identification of both the borrowers and the authors of the credit report, the thread is now open for further comment. Perhaps we can all remember that people (including borrowers and AC staff) have feelings, and excessively agressive criticism of individuals is generally counter productive. Personally I can't see the point of criticism over this proposal. If you're not comfortable with it then simply do not participate and walk away. Ask questions in the relevant section and just maybe they will be answered to the posters satisfaction, but if not then leave alone. There's another P2P company on these forums that have taken a fair amount of flak. Maybe it was justified as their attitude towards potential lenders/investors was at times IMO evasive and sometimes patronising. To others they would have viewed their responses differently. I will not be investing in this other P2P until or unless they have a firm track record but I'm sure others feel differently. Have to agree with Andrew over this. If there are criticisms of AC staff then they should be directed to him via pm. It's not as if AC are not active around these parts unlike some other P2P/P2B's. Just my tuppence worth. Thank you for your kind comments and support.
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Post by andrewholgate on Jan 16, 2014 9:15:53 GMT
Why was my post moderated when I merely quoted Assetz Capital’s own documentation?
Strikes me that the moderators are in cahoots with Assetz, power mad or both.
The rules of the forum state that names not in the public domain should not be quoted. As you have to log in as a lender, I guess the the moderators feel the names should be redacted. I want to clearly state - Assetz Capital funded the set up of this board but our involvement stops there. I don't, nor my staff, have any moderator rights in the forum.
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Post by andrewholgate on Jan 16, 2014 9:18:17 GMT
Not sure UK employment laws allow me to do that. I'm also not keen on personally criticising people by name in an open public forum and I would respectfully request you refrain from doing so, given that there are potentially libelous nature to the comments. I take this very seriously. If there is an issue with their overall work, which I don't believe there is, I will deal with it within Assetz Capital. While the crowd have the right to do due diligence, I do not believe it gives the right to persecute. If you have a problem with Assetz Capital, direct your ire at me. I've noted your comments regarding the report and the deal. I will look into this one. Direct question to you Mr Holgate, quoting your documentation therefore no potentially libellous comments:
From the credit report:
“The query over sole ownership of the property by <snip_redactedByModerator> must be resolved to our satisfaction prior to drawdown.”
Question:
Does that mean that lenders place bids before the question of sole ownership is determined?
If so, someone is taking the p*ss.
From the credit report:
Serviceability
<snip_redactedByModerator> net salary 1245
<snip_redactedByModerator> ESA 606
(ESA is a company insurance benefit which covers illness etc. <snip_redactedByModerator> had whiplash on her neck while in work when she was driving. She will return to work after Christmas)
NB. Salary for <snip_redactedByModerator> is 36k per annum plus bonuses, not known about changes until she returns to work in January 2014.
Question:
How does £36k per annum equate to “<snip_redactedByModerator> net salary 1245”?
Again, is someone extracting the urine?
In answer to your questions: - If the security issue isn't resolved, the auction won't take place. This is why we have delayed it. - Gross £36k, after tax and other deductables is £1245 per month. Not sure why that is unclear.
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ton27
Member of DD Central
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Post by ton27 on Jan 16, 2014 10:08:37 GMT
Not only was the Credit Report poor but there were a bunch of unanswered questions.
Unless these are answered adequately, this is not for me, even at a reduced level from my usual investment.
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Post by lynnanthony on Jan 16, 2014 11:20:48 GMT
- Gross £36k, after tax and other deductables is £1245 per month. Not sure why that is unclear. Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 16, 2014 12:27:19 GMT
- Gross £36k, after tax and other deductables is £1245 per month. Not sure why that is unclear. Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. Well how about page 9 of the report. This lists the net salary plus the ESA. Is it possible that the listed net salary is her current while on sick net which is supplemented by the ESA. She would then return to the full salary on full return to work. Possible interpretation.
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j
Member of DD Central
Penguins are very misunderstood!
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Post by j on Jan 16, 2014 12:36:03 GMT
- Gross £36k, after tax and other deductables is £1245 per month. Not sure why that is unclear. Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. I'm assuming your figure of £2274 per month is after tax deduction. Don't forget, after that comes utility bills, mortgage payments, food, clothes, leisure, fuel, etc. A figure of £1245 after all these bills seems reasonable to me!
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Post by yorkshireman on Jan 16, 2014 12:36:44 GMT
- Gross £36k, after tax and other deductables is £1245 per month. Not sure why that is unclear. Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. That is exactly what I am querying
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Post by batchoy on Jan 16, 2014 12:43:13 GMT
Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. I'm assuming your figure of £2274 per month is after tax deduction. Don't forget, after that comes utility bills, mortgage payments, food, clothes, leisure, fuel, etc. A figure of £1245 after all these bills seems reasonable to me! Which becomes disposable income after necessary/living expenses, rather than net income. Semantics but very important semantics.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 16, 2014 12:43:14 GMT
Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. I'm assuming your figure of £2274 per month is after tax deduction. Don't forget, after that comes utility bills, mortgage payments, food, clothes, leisure, fuel, etc. A figure of £1245 after all these bills seems reasonable to me! Page 9 gives a set of incomes. The £1245 figure is used on there. 'Outgoings' are then taken off the complete set of incomes. Given that the numbers on page 9 include the ESA insurance, I continue to surmise that what is being stated as the £1245 number could be a 'off sick' income not the net of £36k on return to work. If it isn't then agreed that there is probably a muddle in the numbers.
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j
Member of DD Central
Penguins are very misunderstood!
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 540
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Post by j on Jan 16, 2014 12:46:04 GMT
Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. That is exactly what I am querying I hope I'm not sued for lifting this off, but below is the definition of 'net salary', which is after deducting tax but before deducting living expenses, which has always been my personal understanding. Gross salary is before any deductions full stop. Feel free to correct if wrong. www.investorwords.com/10400/net_salary.html Cached Definition of net salary: nounthe salary which is left after deducting tax and National Insurance contributions
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Post by yorkshireman on Jan 16, 2014 12:51:10 GMT
Not by normally understood definitions of net salary it doesn't which is why it is unclear! What are the "other deductibles"? See www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php £36000 equates to about £2274 in your hand a month. I'm assuming your figure of £2274 per month is after tax deduction. Don't forget, after that comes utility bills, mortgage payments, food, clothes, leisure, fuel, etc. A figure of £1245 after all these bills seems reasonable to me! Put that way it does sound reasonable but do banks and building societies still take all that into consideration?
I ask as it’s many years since I applied for a mortgage or loan and bearing in mind the stupid lending that took place prior to 2007 I would be highly surprised if such things were taken into account.
Out of curiosity, why should leisure be included as this must count as discretionary, not essential, spending?
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Post by yorkshireman on Jan 16, 2014 12:54:49 GMT
That is exactly what I am querying I hope I'm not sued for lifting this off, but below is the definition of 'net salary', which is after deducting tax but before deducting living expenses, which has always been my personal understanding. Gross salary is before any deductions full stop. Feel free to correct if wrong. www.investorwords.com/10400/net_salary.html Cached Definition of net salary: nounthe salary which is left after deducting tax and National Insurance contributions I think most people would take that to be the correct definition of net salary.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 16, 2014 14:01:07 GMT
Personally I suspect you are barking up the wrong tree becausae you are trying to relate the net £1245 statement to the £36k gross statement.
I think its clear from page 9 that the net statement is after any tax but before outgoings i.e. classic net take home.
if you made an assumption that the individual is on sick pay of 50% of normal salary (18k), and then put that into the calculator for which someone provided a link, you get a net take home of £1254. Ok not quite £1245, but assuming the £36k is rounded up a bit from the actual salary then it would fit. That is then supplemented by the £600 insurance payout.
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