arbster
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Post by arbster on Sept 24, 2015 18:14:20 GMT
The "industry is buzzing with rumours". The "sums are not large because ... it is one of the smaller of the 100 or so firms ... operating under the FCA regulation.
Do we know who?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 24, 2015 18:23:58 GMT
Personally I don't, but I would caution anybody considering speculating about it to be very careful. EDIT: Here's the link to the story.
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Post by brokenbiscuits on Sept 24, 2015 18:37:05 GMT
Whilst I think it's good to diversify, the scatter gun approach some seem to take, in my opinion, leaves you more vulnerable to platform risk.
Some seem happy to invest in most platforms with the logic that 20 platforms means only 5% loss on each if evenly split.
My approach is more about pyramids of risk. Large percentages in the safest p2p and then less and less as we move up the perceived risk bracket.
Statistically those diversified up to their eyeballs are more likely to get stung when a smaller platform fails.
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james
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Post by james on Sept 24, 2015 20:01:43 GMT
A great opportunity for the bigger players to shoot themselves in their feet by making it something other than completely painless for all customers involved. Hopefully it'll be realised that nobody in the business gains from making it a noisy failure because all players, even the biggest, are still perceived as very risky by a general public that needs to be persuaded to use P2P. That at least seems to be the view reported by the Evening Standard.
However, no publicity is also bad. There is benefit for all in showing that there was a problem and those in the business took care of it without fuss or mess. Not in having the regulator involved, though. That's a sign of failure, not success. Publicity and "we took care of business without the need for outside help" is the way to go to maximise the gain for the business as a whole.
This is an opportunity to show the failure as a sign of a stable and growing industry that looks after consumers. Lets see whether the players involved can pull it off.
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Post by westonkevRS on Sept 24, 2015 20:54:13 GMT
I have no special insight, but I think it's one of three that I think are very high risk. Higher returns don't come for free. And don't ask me who, I'm not into being accused of libel. The irony here is that the journalist in question was a paid for spokesman of a P2P firm that launched in a blaze of expensive publicity. I think he's turned and is getting his defence in early. A simple Google search should give a clue. westonkevRS
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 24, 2015 21:20:03 GMT
I have no special insight, but I think it's one of three that I think are very high risk. Higher returns don't come for free. And don't ask me who, I'm not into being accused of libel. The irony here is that the journalist in question was a paid for spokesman of a P2P firm that launched in a blaze of expensive publicity. I think he's turned and is getting his defence in early. A simple Google search should give a clue. westonkevRSOn the basis that 'google is your friend', i can see a few mentions of Rhydian Lewis in the said journalists articles. But I suspect that isn' a connection you were thinking people might make
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Post by westonkevRS on Sept 25, 2015 6:29:23 GMT
It isn't actually all the surprising, when you think of the number of P2P firms out there it's inevitable. There will be more. The other issue is regulation. As RateSetter said this "i s expensive, burdensome, and could put companies out of business". It's going to cost us half a million quid all in ( www.altfi.com/article/1349_why_are_peer_to_peer_lenders_so_happy_about_being_regulated ). Now we are bigger and night be going OTT, but it's still a burden for all the platforms. The big question raised by the article is should a big player perform a bail out for the sake of the industry. We did it for GraduRates, but personally I'm not sure RateSetter should always step in. Perhaps some lenders need a lesson that return comes with risk, and platforms cannot act with impunity. Perhaps I'm just an unforgiving git. Perhaps someone could set up a vote in a new thread.... Should the large P2P players bail out the failing platforms to help maintain the reputation of the sector? @ westonkevRS
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 8:54:03 GMT
I would think the big players would be out of their minds to let a small player go phut without ensuring both investors and borrowers were safe. Still I understand that your marketing position before it goes phut would be more self serving.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Sept 25, 2015 8:59:12 GMT
Should the large P2P players bail out the failing platforms to help maintain the reputation of the sector? I think that if you (plural) can prevent a disorderly failure at minimal cost, then I think that you should. If the cost is high then that is different. Even if the cost is significant it is worth considering might this cause a delay in the introduction of P2P ISAs?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 25, 2015 9:01:43 GMT
It isn't actually all the surprising, when you think of the number of P2P firms out there it's inevitable. There will be more. The other issue is regulation. As RateSetter said this "i s expensive, burdensome, and could put companies out of business". It's going to cost us half a million quid all in ( www.altfi.com/article/1349_why_are_peer_to_peer_lenders_so_happy_about_being_regulated ). Now we are bigger and night be going OTT, but it's still a burden for all the platforms. The big question raised by the article is should a big player perform a bail out for the sake of the industry. We did it for GraduRates, but personally I'm not sure RateSetter should always step in. Perhaps some lenders need a lesson that return comes with risk, and platforms cannot act with impunity. Perhaps I'm just an unforgiving git. Perhaps someone could set up a vote in a new thread.... Should the large P2P players bail out the failing platforms to help maintain the reputation of the sector? @ westonkevRSMoral hazard. The age old question of banking, lending and investing. We all know that P2P isn't currently covered by the FSCS. I think there are a few contributory factors here:- 1. P2P is not vanilla banking. Our lending cannot be considered deposits (and no P2P company will be paying into the deposit insurance scheme). 2. A desire by the regulators to maintain a light touch towards the regulatory environment so as not to overburden an emergent industry. 3. P2P, at present, can't be considered to be systemically important in the context of the overall financial system - no payments infrastructure, no credit card infrastructure, no primary dealer status on govvy bonds etc, so the industry doesn't benefit from an implicit government subsidy in that regard. 4. In most cases lenders are lending to specific borrowers (even if it is packaged up in a basket of loans by a platform), in contrast to vanilla banking where you lend to the insitution concerned. I think we're all happy with the idea that we may lose capital on some of our investments - me lending to a fireworks company situated next to a factory producing matches? That's on me. That's why I have some money in relatively safe investments (eg UK Gilts), and some money in relatively riskier investments (eg penny shares). I'm not sure we are so happy with the idea that we may lose money because a platform goes under (see my post about platform risk). Let's put to one side outright fraud or silly operational risk losses for a second and just consider a straightforward commercial failure - not enough borrowers and lenders found the product offering attractive enough to make a platform commercially viable. Should investors lose out in such a situation? No, I don't think so. They might have to accept their funds being unavailable for a period of time, and they might have to accept that they couldn't manage their positions, but they shouldn't lose their investments simply and solely because of a platform failure. Moral hazard plays a part in borrower thinking too. I suspect borrowers may be slow to repay debt owed via a failed platform.... So should a large P2P platform step in to rescue a failed platform? No, not unless it was commercially attractive for their business. Should the P2P industry as a whole look to ensure an orderly wind down of a failed platform, as fast as possible, such that investors have confidence that their lending can be protected? Even if it "just" means taking over the loan book? Yes, I think so. If that doesn't happen lenders are going to be much more reluctant to help the industry grow.
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Post by westonkevRS on Sept 25, 2015 9:20:38 GMT
Should the P2P industry as a whole look to ensure an orderly wind down of a failed platform, as fast as possible, such that investors have confidence that their lending can be protected? Even if it "just" means taking over the loan book? Yes, I think so. Agree with everything posted here. Although it should be noted that the P2PFA has strict membership rules (http://p2pfa.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Operating-Principals-vfinal.pdf). As a result P2pFA members cannot be expected to bail out non-P2PFA members, and hence personally If you are lending outside of this membership that's an additional risk you've decided to take: Orderly wind-down. Members must make arrangements to ensure the orderly
administration of the business and run-off of its customers’ contracts in the event
the member or the member’s platform ceases to operate. Such arrangements
should be in line with regulatory requirements9 and either a suitably-governed entity
established by the firm to run down the loanbook or a reputable third party that has;
- sufficient manpower to administer the contracts in run off;
- a suitable collection and payment process for repayments;
- a suitable disbursement process for net proceeds due to lenders;
- the ability for customers to communicate with the operator;
- maintenance of requisite licence approvals;
- compliance with applicable law, regulations; and
- allowance for office and sundry expenses.
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Post by westonkevRS on Sept 25, 2015 9:24:18 GMT
Should the large P2P players bail out the failing platforms to help maintain the reputation of the sector? I think that if you (plural) can prevent a disorderly failure at minimal cost, then I think that you should. If the cost is high then that is different. Even if the cost is significant it is worth considering might this cause a delay in the introduction of P2P ISAs? But what if, and this is an IF, lenders went with the riskier platforms gaining higher returns knowing/expecting that if the proverbial hit the fan they'd be saved by a stronger platform. And that stronger platform in the meantime has lost that business directly because the lender was more confident they could chase higher returns with impunity. Just a theory.
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Post by wiseclerk on Sept 25, 2015 9:31:50 GMT
I would think the big players would be out of their minds to let a small player go phut without ensuring both investors and borrowers were safe. Still I understand that your marketing position before it goes phut would be more self serving. I think a financial bailout by big player would be the wrong way to handle this. Naturally it is in their interest to do everything that the issue is resolved as satisfactory and smooth as possible. So they should certainly offer to help finding a solution. But if there is a financial loss to bear, than it should be covered by the affected platform and possibly the investors on it, but not by the industry as a whole. Otherwise it would set a wrong signal.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Sept 25, 2015 10:40:55 GMT
I think that if you (plural) can prevent a disorderly failure at minimal cost, then I think that you should. If the cost is high then that is different. Even if the cost is significant it is worth considering might this cause a delay in the introduction of P2P ISAs? But what if, and this is an IF, lenders went with the riskier platforms gaining higher returns knowing/expecting that if the proverbial hit the fan they'd be saved by a stronger platform. And that stronger platform in the meantime has lost that business directly because the lender was more confident they could chase higher returns with impunity. Just a theory. Did they expect a higher return because they accepted that the loans were higher risk, or that the platform was higher risk? (If a failed platform had some sort of provision fund then this becomes more blurred.) Also what is your cost of acquiring a lender - it might be good value for a platform to get some lenders, depending on how similar the platforms are. And of course it will depend on what has gone wrong with the failed platform. I agree that you don't want to create moral hazard. This was the reason that they didn't rescue Lehman Brothers. I bet that many of them regret that decision now.
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 25, 2015 10:41:59 GMT
I think that if you (plural) can prevent a disorderly failure at minimal cost, then I think that you should. If the cost is high then that is different. Even if the cost is significant it is worth considering might this cause a delay in the introduction of P2P ISAs? But what if, and this is an IF, lenders went with the riskier platforms gaining higher returns knowing/expecting that if the proverbial hit the fan they'd be saved by a stronger platform. And that stronger platform in the meantime has lost that business directly because the lender was more confident they could chase higher returns with impunity. Just a theory. The phrase 'moral hazard' springs to mind. Edit: not least of which because I now see that it has been mentioned on several other posts: Doh
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