registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 5, 2015 22:27:46 GMT
I'm taking a fairly jaundiced, amused, view (and buying popcorn), and waiting for extremely high fines on VW from Greece, Italy and Spain.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 6, 2015 6:07:18 GMT
It will be interesting to hear how VW intend to 'fix' the cars that are being recalled. My understanding is that the defeat devices switched on Urea injection when testing conditions were detected. I am not sure that VW uses diesel exhaust fluid, containing urea, to reduce NOx. I do not think that Bluemotion is the same as Bluetech - which is the urea based system used by Mercedes... I never knew that was what manufacturers were doing to cut NOx. Not ever having had a diesel I had no reason to. I now have an unpleasant picture of what all those diesel owners have to do when it needs topping up, let alone what happens if they get caught short while out on the road.
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nick
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Post by nick on Oct 6, 2015 17:24:50 GMT
It will be interesting to hear how VW intend to 'fix' the cars that are being recalled. My understanding is that the defeat devices switched on Urea injection when testing conditions were detected. To fix the problem they will have to keep the urea injection on (cost of increasing size of urea tank/refilling of urea?, but no other performance effect) or change other parameters which undoubtedly have a significant impact on performance (hence why they resorted to defect devices in the first place). I think there is a risk that the VW business will be brought out from its current corporate entity to strand some of the massive liabilities heading their way. The number of diesels affected in Europe and the US (admittedly mostly the former) is mind boggling as is the potential civil liabilities from consumers and to a lesser degree, government (except the US). I am not sure that VW uses diesel exhaust fluid, containing urea, to reduce NOx. I do not think that Bluemotion is the same as Bluetech - which is the urea based system used by Mercedes. The offending software is apparently in 11 million cars, mostly in Europe, but that may not be the same thing as those cars having a urea injection system. My TDI did not have a urea tank, but I rather assumed it had the offending software though I did not know how it worked on a car without the urea def. Can anyone say for sure what UK cars are affected and how? The VW defeat software was switching urea injection on to reduce NOX emissions. VW owners will not be aware of any urea tank as it was never intended to be refilled ever, it just held enough urea to pass a set period of lab tests and not for long term use - herein lies the problem. Unbelievable, you can't make this stuff-up. VW has still yet to announce how they will rectify the problem - its not just software.......
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blender
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Post by blender on Oct 6, 2015 18:42:12 GMT
A small tank of urea primarily to use the Bluetec technology to reduce NOx during testing? I could see the software routine being known to only a few people, but the special hardware would have been known to many in WV and high up in the design and manufacturing depts. Their competitors would know, especially Mercedes, since Bluetec was a Daimler development, is used on some Mercedes vehicles to reduce NOx all the time. VW rejected Bluetec officially some years ago - developed their own Bluemotion (with secret tank it seems)..
I am not sure there is any way back. Both the brand and the balance sheet will be trashed.
I am having a little worry about BMW, I have the 2 litre diesel. (There are 5 series models that do have a declared tank for AdBlue fluid which owners can refill. Blue Performance seems to include Bluetec).
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 6, 2015 19:00:29 GMT
Their competitors would know, especially Mercedes, since Bluetec was a Daimler development, is used on some Mercedes vehicles to reduce NOx all the time. VW rejected Bluetec officially some years ago - developed their own Bluemotion (with secret tank it seems). Don't get confused between BlueWhatever-the-badge and AdBlue-the-additive. They're all just different labels for the same thing. Pig pee. AdBlue's been around for a decade, starting in the HGV market, but slowly spreading to cars. Next time you're next to a newish big commercial vehicle in traffic, you'll see a second - blue - filler cap on the fuel tank.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 6, 2015 19:44:13 GMT
If what is being said here is correct, its staggering. Since this blew up I had been thinking that it was going to spread to most manufacturers: a) people move within the industry: tricks used in one would spread or become the subject of whistle blowing b) surely if VW felt they had to "bypass" the testing through some mechanism then other manufacturers would have to as well, as the fundamentals of the engine technologies in use are not going to be too far out from each other and if they weren't copy catting then then VWs test results would surely have stood out from their peers c) manufacturers can take their competitors cars apart (though software is a different issue).
Enlighten me: is it now a known fact that the bypass was to switch on urea injection from a 'closed' tank during testing which was not designed to be used otherwise, when others are using the same approach but in normal usage ? I really struggle to understand how they could possibly have got away with that unnoticed for an extended period.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 6, 2015 19:53:07 GMT
I'm not clear on the technical details, but yes, it's a known fact, corroborated in public by a VW board member, that VW set out to deliberately undermine / falsify diesel emissions testing for at least some of their product range in the US (the implication being that this will also have impacted other regions / countries). They have already reserved $6.5 billion against this. There will be recall / remediation costs. There will be regulatory fines. There will be class action lawsuits. There may well be criminal charges. It's not impossible that there could be wrongful death suits (whether or not these have any merit I leave to our lawerly friends). EDIT: Now with additional linkage. |
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Post by yorkshireman on Oct 6, 2015 20:05:21 GMT
Well this is fascinating stuff about urea  But what is the connection with autobid, unless that runs on it as well? |
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 6, 2015 21:01:20 GMT
Since this blew up I had been thinking that it was going to spread to most manufacturers Quite simply, I do not believe that VAG's engineers are uniquely incompetent or disingenuous. Not AIUI - I believe it's just down to using a different map for injection timing, boost and other mapping tickles. The cars in question are EuroV emissions, which is now superceded - AdBlue's only really started to come in to passenger cars with EuroVI in the last year or two.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 6, 2015 21:03:13 GMT
Olaf Lies from VW? Lovin' it. Yeah, that got a chuckle out of me too  .
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Post by longjohn on Oct 7, 2015 11:11:26 GMT
Well this is fascinating stuff about urea But what is the connection with autobid, unless that runs on it as well? Oh, it does. FC are really taking the urea with their current business plan of launching one loan at a time, waiting for bazza and co to scoop it up in minutes and letting them sell it on in the SM where FC can take another .25% cut. Us punters who do not wish to subscribe to the new model can always pick up the A+ (B or C's in disguise) dregs left over. John
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am
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Post by am on Oct 7, 2015 12:21:02 GMT
Well this is fascinating stuff about urea But what is the connection with autobid, unless that runs on it as well? Oh, it does. FC are really taking the urea with their current business plan of launching one loan at a time, waiting for bazza and co to scoop it up in minutes and letting them sell it on in the SM where FC can take another .25% cut. Us punters who do not wish to subscribe to the new model can always pick up the A+ (B or C's in disguise) dregs left over. John But who's buying them on the secondary market? Presumably they're up for sale at a premium, so autobidders aren't. And I can't see why anyone else would be keen on paying over the odds - it's not as if the flippers are picking out the better quality loans.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 12:34:19 GMT
For legal reasons let us just say that I was once told the following story
"VW has a record for falsifying the numbers; years ago I worked in a now-subsumed engine testing/design plant. At the time the German car industry reported annually which cars were broken down and fixed by road side repair companies. VW visited our design house to discuss how to get from the bottom of the pile to the top and we worked hard on their engines to improve the reliability. In the mean time (because engine changes take time) VW set up a shadow-road side repair company along the autobahns, this shadow company's job was to pick up radio requests for car repairs which came from the autobahns. They then checked if the cars were VWs and rushed to the scene, fixed the car and did not report the failure to the national services. As a result, without improving the cars their reported failure rates dropped and they rose up the charts in car magazines."
Back in the real world my forecast is that 1) we will see the back of another CEO yet, 2) the present CEO will be looking for some major write-offs to kitchen sink the business and 3) it will change its names, I think to Porsche.
I see Fiat is offering enhanced pay-back if you exchange a VW for a Fiat at the moment.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 7, 2015 12:43:26 GMT
But who's buying them on the secondary market? Presumably they're up for sale at a premium, so autobidders aren't. And I can't see why anyone else would be keen on paying over the odds - it's not as if the flippers are picking out the better quality loans. One of the best features about the fixed rate loans is that I can set a higher rate for secondary market transactions, in my case so high I won't be buying anything. It will take time for existing autobidders (I started last week) to adjust their settings, but perhaps the cashback flippers might find their business slows. Also no need for me to buy anything on the secondary market as autobid has been buying enough (not today so far). I will put more money in next week. There are lots of 'adverts' on the site for the secondary market.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Oct 7, 2015 14:38:22 GMT
I don't think you CAN set it high enough to guarantee that a 20%-discounted loan part won't climb the parapet .. would be much better if Feelin Cholmondley just gave you/us a tick box to turn SM buying off (it is after all called autoBID, whereas for newbies it turns out to mostly AutoBUY. Of course 'bid' is a misnomer too these days).
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But what is the connection with autobid, unless that runs on it as well?
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