acky
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Post by acky on Dec 27, 2015 9:27:29 GMT
Thought I’d start a new thread for this, although there has been recent discussion of the subject on the “SM rates” thread. The current paucity of loans on the PM makes it easier to analyse Autobid activity and it is quite clear that Fleet-footed Chancers are artificially throttling AB’s access to the SM. My analysis of the current Loanbook tells me that there should have been £304k in repayments credited to investors’ accounts on 26th December and £398k on the 27th (this excludes “Late” and “Default” loans and excludes Whole Loans). I had no more loans go “Processing” on these days, so it’s reasonable to assume that virtually all this money would have been collected. Overnight on 25th/26th (when 26th repayments would have been credited), AB only bid on one loan (Somerset 4) as it was restricted by the 2 day/50% rule on other unfilled loans; it bid approximately £44k. During the day (26th), four loans passed the 48-hour point and AB immediately filled them up, investing approximately £39k.
Overnight 26th/27th, again only Somerset 4 was available to buy (it being the only loan left on the PM) and it invested approximately £40k to fill up the loan.
Now unfortunately I have to postulate as I don’t know what proportion of investor money has AB activated. Gut-feel based on observation of PM buying patterns is that this is likely to be in the region of 50%. If I’m correct, then between 26th and 27th, AB would have had some £350k available to it, of which about £123k went on the PM, leaving about £227k that it could spend on the SM.
So what did it spend on the SM overnight (26th/27th)? Well the difference between the total SM spend (per the Statistics page, which is updated in real-time) between 10:40 last night and 6:00 this morning was only £39k. Some of this would certainly have been manual bidders (some investors are active late evening), so I doubt AB actually spent more than about £25k. From the “Loan parts” page, I can estimate with reasonable degree of accuracy that the sum value of parts available at par or discount (AB doesn’t buy at a premium) was about £3.88m. So if AB spent £25k, that would be about 0.6% of what was available, which is exactly in line with my own actual sales. For overnight 25th/26th, I didn’t note the total SM spend on the Stats page, but my SM sales were again about 0.6%, so I suspect the spend on the SM overall was at a similar level.
All this suggests that AB is not spending anywhere near its available cash on the SM and so is building up a reserve to spend on PM loans not yet listed. This is contrary to the belief I have seen expounded on this forum that Fiddling Coffers uses SM purchases to ensure that Autobodger accounts are fully invested at all times. GSV3MIaC has suggested there is a link (positive correlation) between the money AB spends on the SM and what it spends on the PM. Although this might empirically fit some recent observations, I don’t really buy it as it would be a very poor business rule - to ensure optimal management of investor accounts, Financially Competent should use SM purchases as a means of balancing out peaks and troughs in available cash. My guess is that they adopt a much simpler approach by simply telling AB on a daily basis how much to buy overnight on the SM. Hence on 22nd and 23rd they realised they had a surplus of funds following recent early repayments and so bumped the figure up, but while they’re not in the office to manage more closely (weekends and Xmas) they take a much more cautious approach and stick in a small figure. The next two nights (with zilch available on the PM, and another £476k in repayments tonight and £314k on 29th) will be an interesting test.
Admittedly, as others have observed, some Autobidders will have set their rates high so as to avoid SM purchases. But I don’t believe this is constraining SM purchases at the moment, as on such a scenario it is difficult to explain why SM sales could go to three times the normal level on both 22nd and 23rd December.
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nick
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Post by nick on Dec 27, 2015 10:52:58 GMT
Thought I’d start a new thread for this, although there has been recent discussion of the subject on the “SM rates” thread. The current paucity of loans on the PM makes it easier to analyse Autobid activity and it is quite clear that Fleet-footed Chancers are artificially throttling AB’s access to the SM. My analysis of the current Loanbook tells me that there should have been £304k in repayments credited to investors’ accounts on 26th December and £398k on the 27th (this excludes “Late” and “Default” loans and excludes Whole Loans). I had no more loans go “Processing” on these days, so it’s reasonable to assume that virtually all this money would have been collected. Overnight on 25th/26th (when 26th repayments would have been credited), AB only bid on one loan (Somerset 4) as it was restricted by the 2 day/50% rule on other unfilled loans; it bid approximately £44k. During the day (26th), four loans passed the 48-hour point and AB immediately filled them up, investing approximately £39k.
Overnight 26th/27th, again only Somerset 4 was available to buy (it being the only loan left on the PM) and it invested approximately £40k to fill up the loan.
Now unfortunately I have to postulate as I don’t know what proportion of investor money has AB activated. Gut-feel based on observation of PM buying patterns is that this is likely to be in the region of 50%. If I’m correct, then between 26th and 27th, AB would have had some £350k available to it, of which about £123k went on the PM, leaving about £227k that it could spend on the SM.
So what did it spend on the SM overnight (26th/27th)? Well the difference between the total SM spend (per the Statistics page, which is updated in real-time) between 10:40 last night and 6:00 this morning was only £39k. Some of this would certainly have been manual bidders (some investors are active late evening), so I doubt AB actually spent more than about £25k. From the “Loan parts” page, I can estimate with reasonable degree of accuracy that the sum value of parts available at par or discount (AB doesn’t buy at a premium) was about £3.88m. So if AB spent £25k, that would be about 0.6% of what was available, which is exactly in line with my own actual sales. For overnight 25th/26th, I didn’t note the total SM spend on the Stats page, but my SM sales were again about 0.6%, so I suspect the spend on the SM overall was at a similar level.
All this suggests that AB is not spending anywhere near its available cash on the SM and so is building up a reserve to spend on PM loans not yet listed. This is contrary to the belief I have seen expounded on this forum that Fiddling Coffers uses SM purchases to ensure that Autobodger accounts are fully invested at all times. GSV3MIaC has suggested there is a link (positive correlation) between the money AB spends on the SM and what it spends on the PM. Although this might empirically fit some recent observations, I don’t really buy it as it would be a very poor business rule - to ensure optimal management of investor accounts, Financially Competent should use SM purchases as a means of balancing out peaks and troughs in available cash. My guess is that they adopt a much simpler approach by simply telling AB on a daily basis how much to buy overnight on the SM. Hence on 22nd and 23rd they realised they had a surplus of funds following recent early repayments and so bumped the figure up, but while they’re not in the office to manage more closely (weekends and Xmas) they take a much more cautious approach and stick in a small figure. The next two nights (with zilch available on the PM, and another £476k in repayments tonight and £314k on 29th) will be an interesting test.
Admittedly, as others have observed, some Autobidders will have set their rates high so as to avoid SM purchases. But I don’t believe this is constraining SM purchases at the moment, as on such a scenario it is difficult to explain why SM sales could go to three times the normal level on both 22nd and 23rd December.
Interesting. £39k feels a bit low for the overnight spend based on my sales (£1.5k-£2k) and current pricing (high & uncompetitive to minimise sales and dead cash build-up) - there is no way that I account for 4-5% of the market! Looking at my pattern of sales, I'm sure the autobid batch purchases are also run on several occasion during the day and not just in an overnight run. Maybe the key constraint is the rates available on the SM. Autobidders must quickly hit their concentration limits on property loans leaving generally less competitive/less scarce SME loans as the only eligible loans for autobid to bid on. The rates on SM SME loans have progressively increased over the past days as normal sellers try to conserve investments and from increased demand from reduced PM activity. The spike in SM sales on 22 and 23 could be explained by most autobidders filling up on property loans and SME loans before hitting hitting concentration limits in the former and rate limits in and later by the 25th. I sure there's alot more going on, but I think this partially accounts for what see are seeing.
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bigfoot12
Member of DD Central
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Post by bigfoot12 on Dec 27, 2015 11:28:46 GMT
Thought I’d start a new thread for this, although there has been recent discussion of the subject on the “SM rates” thread. The current paucity of loans on the PM makes it easier to analyse Autobid activity and it is quite clear that Fleet-footed Chancers are artificially throttling AB’s access to the SM. My analysis of the current Loanbook tells me that there should have been £304k in repayments credited to investors’ accounts on 26th December and £398k on the 27th (this excludes “Late” and “Default” loans and excludes Whole Loans). I had no more loans go “Processing” on these days, so it’s reasonable to assume that virtually all this money would have been collected. Overnight on 25th/26th (when 26th repayments would have been credited), AB only bid on one loan (Somerset 4) as it was restricted by the 2 day/50% rule on other unfilled loans; it bid approximately £44k. During the day (26th), four loans passed the 48-hour point and AB immediately filled them up, investing approximately £39k.
Overnight 26th/27th, again only Somerset 4 was available to buy (it being the only loan left on the PM) and it invested approximately £40k to fill up the loan.
Now unfortunately I have to postulate as I don’t know what proportion of investor money has AB activated. Gut-feel based on observation of PM buying patterns is that this is likely to be in the region of 50%. If I’m correct, then between 26th and 27th, AB would have had some £350k available to it, of which about £123k went on the PM, leaving about £227k that it could spend on the SM.
So what did it spend on the SM overnight (26th/27th)? Well the difference between the total SM spend (per the Statistics page, which is updated in real-time) between 10:40 last night and 6:00 this morning was only £39k. Some of this would certainly have been manual bidders (some investors are active late evening), so I doubt AB actually spent more than about £25k. From the “Loan parts” page, I can estimate with reasonable degree of accuracy that the sum value of parts available at par or discount (AB doesn’t buy at a premium) was about £3.88m. So if AB spent £25k, that would be about 0.6% of what was available, which is exactly in line with my own actual sales. For overnight 25th/26th, I didn’t note the total SM spend on the Stats page, but my SM sales were again about 0.6%, so I suspect the spend on the SM overall was at a similar level.
All this suggests that AB is not spending anywhere near its available cash on the SM and so is building up a reserve to spend on PM loans not yet listed. This is contrary to the belief I have seen expounded on this forum that Fiddling Coffers uses SM purchases to ensure that Autobodger accounts are fully invested at all times. GSV3MIaC has suggested there is a link (positive correlation) between the money AB spends on the SM and what it spends on the PM. Although this might empirically fit some recent observations, I don’t really buy it as it would be a very poor business rule - to ensure optimal management of investor accounts, Financially Competent should use SM purchases as a means of balancing out peaks and troughs in available cash. My guess is that they adopt a much simpler approach by simply telling AB on a daily basis how much to buy overnight on the SM. Hence on 22nd and 23rd they realised they had a surplus of funds following recent early repayments and so bumped the figure up, but while they’re not in the office to manage more closely (weekends and Xmas) they take a much more cautious approach and stick in a small figure. The next two nights (with zilch available on the PM, and another £476k in repayments tonight and £314k on 29th) will be an interesting test.
Admittedly, as others have observed, some Autobidders will have set their rates high so as to avoid SM purchases. But I don’t believe this is constraining SM purchases at the moment, as on such a scenario it is difficult to explain why SM sales could go to three times the normal level on both 22nd and 23rd December.
Interesting. £39k feels a bit low for the overnight spend based on my sales (£1.5k-£2k) and current pricing (high & uncompetitive to minimise sales and dead cash build-up) - there is no way that I account for 4-5% of the market! Looking at my pattern of sales, I'm sure the autobid batch purchases are also run on several occasion during the day and not just in an overnight run. Maybe the key constraint is the rates available on the SM. Autobidders must quickly hit their concentration limits on property loans leaving generally less competitive/less scarce SME loans as the only eligible loans for autobid to bid on. The rates on SM SME loans have progressively increased over the past days as normal sellers try to conserve investments and from increased demand from reduced PM activity. The spike in SM sales on 22 and 23 could be explained by most autobidders filling up on property loans and SME loans before hitting hitting concentration limits in the former and rate limits in and later by the 25th. I sure there's alot more going on, but I think this partially accounts for what see are seeing. acky very interesting. I agree with you that it would by crazy for FC to implement the PM/SM split suggested by GSV3MIaC. I'm quite new here, and so I bow to the knowledge of others, but could be some unintended consequence of a badly thought out or badly implemented policy? I understand from reading this forum there have been one or two of those in the past. I wonder if during a time of plenty, and when there were variable rate auctions so there was often more to bid on someone, for example, suggested that no more than 50% (or 30%, whatever) should come from the secondary market? Or some other rule that might have been appropriate then, but not now. We should get more evidence over the next few days. nick it sounds as though you are talking about loans sold at a premium whereas I think acky is talking about loans sold at par or a discount. Also I think that you mean SME loan rates have decreased ( or maybe you mean loan premiums have increased), as that would fit with your argument, and that is what seems to me to have happened. Anyone fancy turning autobid on?
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 27, 2015 11:57:30 GMT
Fancy Computing have a long history of Crazy!! However I did see a few sales of property parts at par last night, when the PM was basically stripped, so it obviously isn't just a 50/50 split or anything similar.
We KNOW FC 'stockpile' autobodge money from the overnight run (assuming it finishes early AM, like it should) for use on the primary market during the next day, but their much vaunted 'transparency' doesn't actually extend to telling us anything about what or how or when, so we'll have to guess. Maybe they stockpile extra at weekends .. definitely something odd going on.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 27, 2015 13:32:04 GMT
Note that unless the £2k portfolio is ALL in property loans, there is also a principal return of £2 per day, so you can actually buy a new loan part every week or two, rather than every 7 weeks. And that doesn't account for early redemptions. Yes, the black box is very black, but we do know it carries money over to the next day's auctions, and (apparently), when there are no auctions the next day, it doesn't then invest it in the SM instead.
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Post by ratrace on Dec 27, 2015 13:48:53 GMT
There's little in the way of good value on the SM at the moment. What good offers there are is only in loan parts that are sized in there £100's or even £1000's. So it does not surprise me that the SM is slow and people are waiting for something better to come along.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 27, 2015 15:22:22 GMT
ratrace, we are mostly talking about sales at par (to autobid). There are actually plenty of sales at (small and large) markups, to manual bidders, taking place .. actually the last two or three days have been a record for shifting marked up parts. Yes, markups have actually gone up (but parts are still selling) as there is nothing on the PM to interest people, nor will there be for a while yet.
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Post by ratrace on Dec 27, 2015 16:00:44 GMT
ratrace , we are mostly talking about sales at par (to autobid). There are actually plenty of sales at (small and large) markups, to manual bidders, taking place .. actually the last two or three days have been a record for shifting marked up parts. Yes, markups have actually gone up (but parts are still selling) as there is nothing on the PM to interest people, nor will there be for a while yet. The fact that there are far more manual bidders on the SM then autobidders at the moment is a sign that there is poor value on offer in the SM. Because only manual bidders can bid for loans with increasing mark ups. So if autobid is stopping these lenders from buying loan parts in the SM at the moment, then its serving them well. As its stopping them from bidding when there is poor value on offer in the SM. By doing this it should help to increase the average returns that autobidders will get from their lending. Which is in FC interests
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metoo
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Post by metoo on Dec 27, 2015 18:07:10 GMT
[Sorry folks, I got confused and managed to delete my earlier post. Here it is followed by GSV3MIaC's response and a new response]. Thanks acky for sharing your detailed analysis combining many pieces of data. A big unknown is the proportion of money going to autobid. The proportion of new money going to autobid may be different from the proportion of interest payments going to autobid. The profile of investors may be different. Some may draw off interest as income, though perhaps it is not significant. A £2000 portfolio earns ~40p interest per day or takes ~7 weeks to buy a loan part from interest. Perhaps many investors save a little each month and this is when their interest also gets rolled in to new loan parts. We don't know what proportion of portfolios don't usually reinvest income until new money is added. And what proportion of the money that does reinvest directly from interest is set to higher SM rates. Then there is the saturation effect on large property loans. acky you have shed interesting light on the black box, but still it keeps its secrets dark. We assume some rules or levers are in play, yet the explanation may be different. If I were an autobid investor, I would at least expect FC to keep my funds working and would feel aggrieved if not. Having read GSV, I agree there must be some stockpiling mechanism. Note that unless the £2k portfolio is ALL in property loans, there is also a principal return of £2 per day, so you can actually buy a new loan part every week or two, rather than every 7 weeks. And that doesn't account for early redemptions. Yes, the black box is very black, but we do know it carries money over to the next day's auctions, and (apparently), when there are no auctions the next day, it doesn't then invest it in the SM instead. I missed that, being mostly in property. Of course autobidders are mostly diversified across all loan types in their chosen risk bands. Would £2/£2000 per day of principal return amortising be for a pure SME portfolio or a typical portfolio? It might be less now with property in the mix, and 5 year loans? I guess the loan book would give the proportion of loans in SME/property for new or all loans, also average duration. I still think a proportion of income may get rolled in with new money saved to buy parts, reducing the % of overnight income going directly into bids. The £100 minimum deposit goes against my argument though.
It will be interesting to see whether autobid functions tonight, now that the PM is empty.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 27, 2015 18:18:10 GMT
ratrace , we are mostly talking about sales at par (to autobid). There are actually plenty of sales at (small and large) markups, to manual bidders, taking place .. actually the last two or three days have been a record for shifting marked up parts. Yes, markups have actually gone up (but parts are still selling) as there is nothing on the PM to interest people, nor will there be for a while yet. The fact that there are far more manual bidders on the SM then autobidders at the moment is a sign that there is poor value on offer in the SM. Because only manual bidders can bid for loans with increasing mark ups. So if autobid is stopping these lenders from buying loan parts in the SM at the moment, then its serving them well. As its stopping them from bidding when there is poor value on offer in the SM. By doing this it should help to increase the average returns that autobidders will get from their lending. Which is in FC interests Nope, it is a sign that autobid isn't running. The same 8/9% A and A+ parts which were there last week are there now, but autobid isn't buying them. Please note the title of this thread, and the fact that autobid will ONLY buy parts at par or discount. If I offer an A+ part at 14.8% with a 0.1% markup, autobid won't touch it.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 27, 2015 18:29:23 GMT
metoo .. the £2/day is the overall average (estimated) for all loans on the market. Property loans ALSO return the capital, albeit rather lumpily (but usually more often than the average 1000 days, i.e ~3 years, I was quoting). The average loan is still rather less than 5 years, and quite a lot are paid back early. While most autobiddies probably have parts in the multi-tranche property loans by now (having had up to 9 chances to be bidding when one was for sale) there are several smaller loans with only 2 or 3 tranches which I can guarantee that not all autobiddies will have, and which have parts for sale at par, and which are not getting bought. Maybe some folks have indeed set their autobuy thresholds well above the default, and thus avoid 8% A+ parts on the SM, but I don't think that accounts for the complete drying up of sales (except overnight, when there were some, but not nearly enough to soak up the available cash). It's hard to think of an algorithm (or even a bug) which would result in LESS SM sales (autobid, at par) over the weekend .. 'save 75% for the PM at the next opportunity' would work the same every day .. which is why I suggested something like 'for every £ you bid into the PM, bid £x into the SM' (although last night it looks like that wasn't it .. and tonight bids into the PM will be exactly 0, so we shall see ..
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Post by ratrace on Dec 27, 2015 19:17:19 GMT
The fact that there are far more manual bidders on the SM then autobidders at the moment is a sign that there is poor value on offer in the SM. Because only manual bidders can bid for loans with increasing mark ups. So if autobid is stopping these lenders from buying loan parts in the SM at the moment, then its serving them well. As its stopping them from bidding when there is poor value on offer in the SM. By doing this it should help to increase the average returns that autobidders will get from their lending. Which is in FC interests Nope, it is a sign that autobid isn't running. The same 8/9% A and A+ parts which were there last week are there now, but autobid isn't buying them. Please note the title of this thread, and the fact that autobid will ONLY buy parts at par or discount. If I offer an A+ part at 14.8% with a 0.1% markup, autobid won't touch it. When there is less loan parts at par or less on the SM then demand from autobidders on the SM reduces. So the point l make about value is correct, remember am making this from the point of view as a buyer not a seller. lf you are correct about autobid stopping working then is it because FC are expecting strong demand for loans waiting in the wings.?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2015 20:21:00 GMT
I hate to spoil the makings of a good theory here, but my CB-stripped par property has been flying out over Xmas - easily three or four times the normal over the last five days...
Now just watch it all dry up!
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 27, 2015 21:07:20 GMT
At par, or at a discount? The latter are certainly shifting . . to manual buyers.
Looking at my (par) sales, 24th and 25th were dire .. about 2 each, 26th was 3, 27th was 9. Sample size a bit small for drawing conclusions though. These were almost all 8% A+ parts in various property loans (I think one or two were SME loans).
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 27, 2015 22:17:42 GMT
At par, or at a discount? All par. Almost all 8%, just a few 9%ers. Ten on 23rd. Seven on 22nd. Six each today, and on Xmas eve. One yesterday, two Xmas day - that's about normal. Just over 100 left listed.
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