bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 16, 2014 21:32:39 GMT
Well this has now officially gone with zero interest return but at least the initial investment has been returned. Thought FS were always up against trying to realise the required price on a motorbike in October.
Will be more selective in future as I'm sure others will.
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ramblin rose
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“Some people grumble that roses have thorns; I am grateful that thorns have roses.” — Alphonse Karr
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Post by ramblin rose on Oct 16, 2014 21:51:28 GMT
Well this has now officially gone with zero interest return but at least the initial investment has been returned. Thought FS were always up against trying to realise the required price on a motorbike in October. Will be more selective in future as I'm sure others will. Yes indeed - it's a relatively easy one to swallow, as amounts are low all round. It's yet another bit of evidence in favour of my contention that the LTVs are too high here though. As someone who has her own 2 wheels I should have known better on this one, and am surprised I managed to get myself involved. Perhaps it was a renewal and I just didn't bother looking at it before rolling my investment over (smacks own wrists firmly). But surely FS ought to have known better. They particularly need to think harder about whether valuations are still valid for renewals. (I haven't actually checked whether this was a renewal, but I still wish to make that point in any case). Edit: and these clearly very real default and zero interest risks is why I won't be participating in tomorrow's 11% offering
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 16, 2014 22:05:03 GMT
Well this has now officially gone with zero interest return but at least the initial investment has been returned. Thought FS were always up against trying to realise the required price on a motorbike in October. Will be more selective in future as I'm sure others will. Yes indeed - it's a relatively easy one to swallow, as amounts are low all round. It's yet another bit of evidence in favour of my contention that the LTVs are too high here though. As someone who has her own 2 wheels I should have known better on this one, and am surprised I managed to get myself involved. Perhaps it was a renewal and I just didn't bother looking at it before rolling my investment over (smacks own wrists firmly). But surely FS ought to have known better. They particularly need to think harder about whether valuations are still valid for renewals. (I haven't actually checked whether this was a renewal, but I still wish to make that point in any case). You're probably correct about the valuations overall but I doubt if FS were really the best folks in the world to value these 2 wheels especially with a cut off date at the end of the biking season. Plus of course, (me) being wise after the event, the Tigercat wasn't exactly the most popular of bikes in it's day and certainly didn't have a following like the recent V-Max. On another point, I really do hope that FS manage to get more loans into the marketplace. I'm sure they are trying but it really is frustrating at times and I'm beginning to wonder whether it's really worth the time chasing a return on £50 here and there. Now if they could develop the platform, introduce a secondary market plus a shadow bidding facility then that would help. I understand why they do not announce a firm time when a loan goes live but really the platform should be robust enough by now - although probably not. So they need to drip feed.
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ramblin rose
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Post by ramblin rose on Oct 16, 2014 22:11:39 GMT
Yes indeed - it's a relatively easy one to swallow, as amounts are low all round. It's yet another bit of evidence in favour of my contention that the LTVs are too high here though. As someone who has her own 2 wheels I should have known better on this one, and am surprised I managed to get myself involved. Perhaps it was a renewal and I just didn't bother looking at it before rolling my investment over (smacks own wrists firmly). But surely FS ought to have known better. They particularly need to think harder about whether valuations are still valid for renewals. (I haven't actually checked whether this was a renewal, but I still wish to make that point in any case). ............... but I doubt if FS were really the best folks in the world to value these 2 wheels especially with a cut off date at the end of the biking season. Plus of course, (me) being wise after the event, the Tigercat wasn't exactly the most popular of bikes in it's day and certainly didn't have a following like the recent V-Max. This is precisely why I think the LTVs are too high - it's them I have the issue with and not the valuations. There's too much chance that the valuations aren't precise - it must be really hard to do, even for experts. We've got a fair bit of evidence of that to date, with us having benefitted on a number of occasions from FS generosity. The only way to guard against the difficulty with accurate valuations, and possibilities for things to lose value over time, is to use a conservative LTV.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 16, 2014 22:16:48 GMT
Well this has now officially gone with zero interest return but at least the initial investment has been returned. Thought FS were always up against trying to realise the required price on a motorbike in October. Will be more selective in future as I'm sure others will. <snip> Edit: and these clearly very real default and zero interest risks is why I won't be participating in tomorrow's 11% offering Same here, 11% is not for me but I'm not around tomorrow anyway so wouldn't be available to participate.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 17, 2014 0:25:09 GMT
Well this has now officially gone with zero interest return but at least the initial investment has been returned. The result is a disappointment, but at least we didn't take a loss on the loan. I see from the email that the proceeds weren't enough even to cover the cost of transport and storage of the bike, so the shortfall must have been significant. My questions for fundingsecure are... - Can you confirm the bike was sold at auction?
- What was the selling price?
- What were the net proceeds from the auction after paying the selling and directly related fees?
- What would the 'hammer' price have had to be in order for FS to recover all its costs, and for everyone to have received all the interest and fees that they had accrued?
I ask these questions so that I can understand better what to expect from a security sale when a borrower defaults, and to be better able to judge whether or not a given LTV is likely to be appropriate for a given loan, and whether or not the proposed interest rate is commensurate with the default shortfall risks.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 17, 2014 1:09:25 GMT
On another point, I really do hope that FS manage to get more loans into the marketplace. I'm sure they are trying but it really is frustrating at times and I'm beginning to wonder whether it's really worth the time chasing a return on £50 here and there. Now if they could develop the platform, introduce a secondary market plus a shadow bidding facility then that would help. I understand why they do not announce a firm time when a loan goes live but really the platform should be robust enough by now - although probably not. So they need to drip feed. I hope fundingsecure manage to bring more loans forward as well. I have missed out on the last two loans because I wasn't able to keep close watch on their website at the time the loans were released, and they must have been funded completely pretty quickly. I suspect that Friday's loan similarly will fill very quickly, despite the reduced interest rate. As someone who has been investing with FS for a little while, I'm having difficulty re-lending my loan proceeds as my earlier loans mature, and I'm similarly beginning to wonder whether it's worth the effort and attention required. My experience with the website a couple of weeks or so ago suggests that it still grinds to a halt if many people try to access it at once, and others were reporting similar problems at the same time, so I don't think it was just me or my ISP. I haven't a clue how much of this bottleneck is the result of the web design, or the web hosting, or might simply be caused by FS trying to keep costs down by not overbuying bandwidth. I'm not too concerned about the lack of shadow bidding because most loans are activated within a very few days of being made available for investment. The exceptions are the huge loans, but those are so rare that I can't get too worried about them. The secondary market situation is more of a concern, most particularly because FS suggested months ago that they were working on that but have said nothing at all since. They have been asked here for an update more than once, but have failed to respond every time. How about it FS? A bit of info -- positive or negative -- is a lot better than being silent and letting everyone speculate. Finally, one thing I really don't understand about FS is the adverts that appear at the top of the P2PIF pages. Why are they spending money in an attempt to bring in more investors, when they aren't bringing forward enough loans to satisfy the investors they already have? I could understand it if they were having trouble funding loans. In the current situation, however, more investors will lead to more frustration among investors, and that won't help the growth prospects of the platform at all.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 17, 2014 8:12:36 GMT
On another point, I really do hope that FS manage to get more loans into the marketplace. I'm sure they are trying but it really is frustrating at times and I'm beginning to wonder whether it's really worth the time chasing a return on £50 here and there. Now if they could develop the platform, introduce a secondary market plus a shadow bidding facility then that would help. I understand why they do not announce a firm time when a loan goes live but really the platform should be robust enough by now - although probably not. So they need to drip feed. My experience with the website a couple of weeks or so ago suggests that it still grinds to a halt if many people try to access it at once, and others were reporting similar problems at the same time, so I don't think it was just me or my ISP. I haven't a clue how much of this bottleneck is the result of the web design, or the web hosting, or might simply be caused by FS trying to keep costs down by not overbuying bandwidth. Could be a combination of all three. Once an auction is announced they could operate a SB facility for those with credit - a simple e-mail would suffice. There would no longer be a requirement to sit at the PC hitting the F5 refresh button waiting for the loan to go live - assuming you have the inclination at that particular time to do so which I'm finding is simply not worth it. As the number of loans coming on stream isn't exactly overwhelming, I would suggest this SB could be done manually. Also of course it would take folks 'off the platform' to relieve the stress it's under so a win win all round I would have thought.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 17, 2014 12:55:22 GMT
My experience with the website a couple of weeks or so ago suggests that it still grinds to a halt if many people try to access it at once, and others were reporting similar problems at the same time, so I don't think it was just me or my ISP. I haven't a clue how much of this bottleneck is the result of the web design, or the web hosting, or might simply be caused by FS trying to keep costs down by not overbuying bandwidth. Could be a combination of all three. Once an auction is announced they could operate a SB facility for those with credit - a simple e-mail would suffice. There would no longer be a requirement to sit at the PC hitting the F5 refresh button waiting for the loan to go live - assuming you have the inclination at that particular time to do so which I'm finding is simply not worth it. As the number of loans coming on stream isn't exactly overwhelming, I would suggest this SB could be done manually. Also of course it would take folks 'off the platform' to relieve the stress it's under so a win win all round I would have thought. I think my definition of shadow bidding and bugs4me's definition are different. To me, shadow bidding means the ability to place a bid without having the funds deposited yet. So you don't have to deposit money in the hope of being able to get a bid into an auction at the time it becomes available. If you do manage to place a bid, then you have to cover your bid by depositing money promptly. What bugs4me seems to be describing is what I would call pre-bidding. That allows an investor to say by some means -- B4M suggested an email to FS -- that they want to place a bid as soon as an auction goes live. This would means they wouldn't have to be at their PC when the auction goes live, and would relieve the pressure on the website. Unfortunately, with a typical FS loan that would fill quickly on the website, all pre-bidding would accomplish would be to move the scramble from the website when the loan goes live to the time the email goes out announcing that there's a new loan coming. FS immediately would receive a flood of emails from investors expressing interest and the loan would be fully funded before it even reached the website. All this would accomplish is to place an extra layer of work onto FS. And until FS replied to the email, the investor wouldn't know whether they put their request in on time or whether their request had arrived after others had made enough requests to completely fund the loan. While the ability to pre-bid would eliminate the need to be watching the website closely to see when the loan goes live, that need would be replaced by the need to be watching your email closely for the announcement and to be able to reply immediately. I don't see that as a significant improvement. Am I missing something? ISTM that the only real solution is to improve the supply demand balance, hopefully by bring enough loan requests forward that all the available investment demand can be satisfied. No doubt FS are working hard on accomplishing this, though, as I noted earlier, if the adverts they are placing to encourage more investors are having any effect then the problem will be getting worse rather than better.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 17, 2014 13:26:07 GMT
Could be a combination of all three. Once an auction is announced they could operate a SB facility for those with credit - a simple e-mail would suffice. There would no longer be a requirement to sit at the PC hitting the F5 refresh button waiting for the loan to go live - assuming you have the inclination at that particular time to do so which I'm finding is simply not worth it. As the number of loans coming on stream isn't exactly overwhelming, I would suggest this SB could be done manually. Also of course it would take folks 'off the platform' to relieve the stress it's under so a win win all round I would have thought. I think my definition of shadow bidding and bugs4me's definition are different. To me, shadow bidding means the ability to place a bid without having the funds deposited yet. So you don't have to deposit money in the hope of being able to get a bid into an auction at the time it becomes available. If you do manage to place a bid, then you have to cover your bid by depositing money promptly. What bugs4me seems to be describing is what I would call pre-bidding. That allows an investor to say by some means -- B4M suggested an email to FS -- that they want to place a bid as soon as an auction goes live. This would means they wouldn't have to be at their PC when the auction goes live, and would relieve the pressure on the website. Unfortunately, with a typical FS loan that would fill quickly on the website, all pre-bidding would accomplish would be to move the scramble from the website when the loan goes live to the time the email goes out announcing that there's a new loan coming. FS immediately would receive a flood of emails from investors expressing interest and the loan would be fully funded before it even reached the website. All this would accomplish is to place an extra layer of work onto FS. And until FS replied to the email, the investor wouldn't know whether they put their request in on time or whether their request had arrived after others had made enough requests to completely fund the loan. While the ability to pre-bid would eliminate the need to be watching the website closely to see when the loan goes live, that need would be replaced by the need to be watching your email closely for the announcement and to be able to reply immediately. I don't see that as a significant improvement. Am I missing something? ISTM that the only real solution is to improve the supply demand balance, hopefully by bring enough loan requests forward that all the available investment demand can be satisfied. No doubt FS are working hard on accomplishing this, though, as I noted earlier, if the adverts they are placing to encourage more investors are having any effect then the problem will be getting worse rather than better. Correct mikes1531 - pre-bidding will do nicely. The solution though is really to get more loans available which IIRC FS have been working on this (with limited success) for many months. Whilst it may have been a novelty at first waiting around for an auction to start financially it's not usually worth it. Plus of course staying logged in simply increases the load on a not very robust platform IMO. I've always thought that the FS idea/concept was a great one. That thinking though alone is not enough to get it to fly and I suspect bringing more loans to the table has never been more urgent than now before others decide to stop chasing the odd £50 involvement here and there.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 17, 2014 18:16:01 GMT
I've always thought that the FS idea/concept was a great one. That thinking though alone is not enough to get it to fly and I suspect bringing more loans to the table has never been more urgent than now before others decide to stop chasing the odd £50 involvement here and there. I agree. And as a consequence of the current supply/demand imbalance, I really think that the adverts appearing above -- and elsewhere, I presume -- are counter-productive to FS's success. All they will accomplish is to bring in more hopeful investors, which will increase the supply/demand imbalance and website performance issues, and result in more dissatisfied investors. To the extent that investors start mentioning in forums such as this their dissatisfaction due to their inability to invest, FS will gain a reputation that they'd rather not have and, unfortunately, once that happens it will not be easy to repair that reputation if FS do manage to bring supply and demand more into balance. In short, I just do not understand why FS are trying to attract investors at this stage in their development. Perhaps fundingsecure would care to comment, to explain what they're trying to accomplish with these adverts.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 4, 2014 5:15:52 GMT
I received a very brief message today saying that the bassoon loan had been repaid. Looking at the loan's page, I can see the following has been added to the text... If there was an email sent giving more info, I haven't received it. What I'd really like to know from fundingsecure is whether the proceeds from the sale actually were enough to cover all FS's fees and the sale costs, etc., or whether FS were more generous to lenders than required by the Ts&Cs. If the former, that's really good to know. If the latter, I appreciate FS's generosity, but I'd like to know the details. Unless the Ts&Cs are changed with respect to the priority of distribution of security sale proceeds, my return depends on sale results and/or FS generosity. Since FS generosity cannot be relied upon indefinitely, I need to know what the actual sale result was in order to attempt to assess the risk I'm taking by lending through FS. I doubt if you will get the detailed information you require for the bassoon. If all fees were covered then fine but if not then I don't feel FS would feel like disclosing (another) gesture on their part. While I can understand why fundingsecure might be reluctant to disclose the details of a sale that did not produce enough proceeds to cover all costs, to withhold that info and simply tell lenders that the sale was completed and all lenders were paid their full accrued interest would mislead lenders into thinking that all went well when, in fact, it didn't. If FS wish to commit themselves to keeping lenders insulated from shortfalls, then I don't mind if they keep the details of the sale results to themselves. But if they're not going to make that commitment then they must reveal the actual results in order to avoid misleading people. Here's an interesting development to consider with respect to the bassoon... When fundingsecure first said they had placed the bassoon for sale through a specialist musical instrument seller, Howarth of London, I went and looked at their website. They had a list of the bassoons they offered for sale. The list was updated few weeks later and a new entry appeared for a 'Buffet French system' bassoon for £1900. That sounded just like the one FS was selling. The list was updated as of 8/Oct and the instrument still was listed. That was the day FS reported that their/our bassoon had been sold, so I expected the instrument would be missing from the list the next time it was updated. I therefore was most surprised to see the Buffet French system bassoon still offered for sale on the most recent list dated 1/Nov. Was that not our bassoon? What are the implications if it was? Did FS decide to pay us off before the bassoon actually was sold? Perhaps FS sold the bassoon to the dealer and now it's the dealer's to sell. If so, I'd be very surprised if the dealer paid enough to allow FS to cover all of its own fees and still have enough left over to return all our capital (£1400) and accrued interest (£155). I still hold the position I stated above on 9/Oct, and I really, really, would like FS to tell us what actually happened. Have we been misled?
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Post by fundingsecure on Nov 4, 2014 8:55:00 GMT
Mike, no conspiracy here.
The bassoon was listed with Howarth - but we had a separate offer which we accepted, rather than wait any longer in the hope of selling it at the higher price that Howarth (still) believed was possible.
We then collected it from Howarth, I would imagine that Howarth took a little time to remove it, although I haven't revisited their site since we collected the bassoon.
FundingSecure
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 7, 2014 4:14:25 GMT
Mike, no conspiracy here. The bassoon was listed with Howarth - but we had a separate offer which we accepted, rather than wait any longer in the hope of selling it at the higher price that Howarth (still) believed was possible. We then collected it from Howarth, I would imagine that Howarth took a little time to remove it, although I haven't revisited their site since we collected the bassoon. fundingsecure: Thank you for your input, it is most reassuring. On the other hand, I'm having trouble making the numbers work out, so I'd appreciate some assistance. Please bear with me... This £1400 loan started on 2/Dec/2013 and was settled on 8/Oct/2014. I make that a term of 310 days. Investors earned 13% p.a. interest so the total interest would have been £1400 x 13% x (310/365) = £154.57. That's consistent with the £5.53 I earned on my £50 investment, so I feel I've done that calculation correctly. According to Section 9.2 of the FS Ts&Cs... So FS's fees for this loan should have been £1400 x 2.6% x 12 x (310/365) = £370.98. Since FS's fees rank ahead of lender interest when settling a loan, for lenders to have received their full amount of capital and accrued interest, the proceeds from the sale would have had to be at least £1400 + £370.98 + £154.57 = £1925.55. My problem is that £1925.55 is more than Howarth were trying to sell the bassoon for, and that's inconsistent with the FS statement I've quoted at the top of this message. Where have I gone wrong with my calculation? Finally, if we accept what FS have said at face value, then Howarth aren't going to win any prizes for efficiency. They've updated their list of second-hand bassoons this week and the Buffet French system instrument is still on it.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 3, 2014 17:05:35 GMT
fundingsecure: Could we please have a response to my previous message? Also, I note that Howarth have updated their for sale list a number of times since I wrote last -- most recently on 2/Dec -- and they still seem to think they have the bassoon available to sell.
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