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Post by batchoy on Feb 8, 2016 18:44:47 GMT
None of your scenarios are any different to Ben's particularly so the first one and using the tools Circlender provides does not reduce the risk of non-repayment. Picking up on your comments to lynnanthony, you clearly have very jaundiced view of P2P lending and little understanding of the unsecured personal P2P lending in the UK. Whilst your site may have a place in parts of Asia but that is still open to question, I don't believe it offers anything of substance in Europe or North America, and would probably need authorisations from the the local financial regulators for the brokering services that it does provide. With the recent warning of NPL in US based LendingClub, I am quite convinced that what direction p2p platforms are heading. I might be wrong, so just wait a little bit longer and see. No point arguing right now. I have beta testers from Europe and the North America that have different views. They think I have a viable business model. Not all of them are as "sophisticated" as u I guess. Asia is definitely my main markets but Europe and US are equally important to me. I will find ways to enter these markets, don't worry. In your earlier comment, you told me that my services are no different than using an excel spreadsheet. And now u are telling me that my services might be subject to financial regulations in your country. are u telling me UK is regulating the use of spreadsheet right now? By introducing borrowers and lenders through your loan request service and charging a fee for doing so you are acting as a credit broker. Credit broking services like most financial services are regulated in the UK by the FCA and brokers have to be registered and authorized. Additionally by charging Borrowers upfront for non-refundable time limited credits you are probably breaching UK Credit Broking Regulations, which are anti upfront and non-refundable fees. You need to do more homework before you start operating in any jurisdiction and make sure you are in compliance the local regulations before you start promoting financial services in and allowing people from that jurisdiction to login and create accounts. For example are you aware that there are three different legal systems in the UK, and therefore you are likely to need three different loan agreements if they are to be worth anything in court. Do you have AML procedures in place to spot and report potential money laundering, if not you open yourself up to being prosecuted for committing money laundering offences if people who use your services are prosecuted for money laundering by way of loans brokered through your platform.
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 8, 2016 18:57:57 GMT
If you could let me know the VC interested in this I have recently started developing a business in left handed screwdrivers that may be of interest to them? I'll pay an introduction fee, obviously.
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jjc
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Post by jjc on Feb 8, 2016 19:13:10 GMT
CircLender, please don’t take batchoy’s points the wrong way. In your OP you said “The platform is now ready for thorough testing and scrutiny” & he is actually asking the very questions everyone will have > 1. what could this platform offer me that I don’t already have 2. How ready do they seem to be (if I wanted to support them), including (ofcourse) does it even sound legal I admire your entrepreneurship & determination, but the first thing you will need to do to succeed is convince people of the above. This site might seem (simple graphics etc) an amateur/hobby-ists’ noticeboard but actually there are many very well-informed investors here (don’t know any site anywhere in the world that comes even close to this on P2P). People here will look to support you, & other new providers, IF you can convince them. You may not know but some platforms actually really started out on this forum or are where they are thanks in large part to people’s support here – we love entrepreneurs! Even bigger platforms already quite well established still actively ask for suggestions (or read it) to get lots of ideas on how to improve & further develop their offer. It’s a funny world. I personally think there may be cultural differences which make your proposition difficult to apply here. But we are not biased  & basically will support any convincing proposal (it’s in our interest too). Win-win, just please expect the “thorough testing & scrutiny” you asked for. Successful entrepreneurs always listen to the market, & rarely call it “sarcastic” (in public at least). Good luck Ps. whilst I have no reason to trust your integrity, please don’t forget there are many scare stories (& probably lots lots more to come) from the whacky world of P2P. So whilst YOU may be honest there will be OTHERS who could try to follow on your heels that are less so. We don’t actually know who the latest newbie is, so we ask the same questions to everyone. For free 
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 8, 2016 19:13:30 GMT
ablrateandy: is that an appropriate comment, albeit intended with some humour ? Would you like others to make similar comments about ano's endeavours with a platform ? Best to stick to constructive (even if albeit negative ones) comments lest this thread get out of hand at some point.
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Investor
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Post by Investor on Feb 8, 2016 19:31:05 GMT
ablrateandy : is that an appropriate comment, albeit intended with some humour ? Would you like others to make similar comments about ano's endeavours with a platform ? Best to stick to constructive (even if albeit negative ones) comments lest this thread get out of hand at some point. Well said. Wasn't even that funny really. Also think it might be worth our friend from Circlender having a 'representative' tag.
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 8, 2016 20:03:15 GMT
Sorry. My internal monologue got hold of my login.
More seriously though, the interesting research would be into the cultural aspects of it. I suspect that FF loans may be considerably more popular in Asia than in the UK?
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Post by CircLender on Feb 8, 2016 20:20:48 GMT
With the recent warning of NPL in US based LendingClub, I am quite convinced that what direction p2p platforms are heading. I might be wrong, so just wait a little bit longer and see. No point arguing right now. I have beta testers from Europe and the North America that have different views. They think I have a viable business model. Not all of them are as "sophisticated" as u I guess. Asia is definitely my main markets but Europe and US are equally important to me. I will find ways to enter these markets, don't worry. In your earlier comment, you told me that my services are no different than using an excel spreadsheet. And now u are telling me that my services might be subject to financial regulations in your country. are u telling me UK is regulating the use of spreadsheet right now? By introducing borrowers and lenders through your loan request service and charging a fee for doing so you are acting as a credit broker. Credit broking services like most financial services are regulated in the UK by the FCA and brokers have to be registered and authorized. Additionally by charging Borrowers upfront for non-refundable time limited credits you are probably breaching UK Credit Broking Regulations, which are anti upfront and non-refundable fees. You need to do more homework before you start operating in any jurisdiction and make sure you are in compliance the local regulations before you start promoting financial services in and allowing people from that jurisdiction to login and create accounts. For example are you aware that there are three different legal systems in the UK, and therefore you are likely to need three different loan agreements if they are to be worth anything in court. Do you have AML procedures in place to spot and report potential money laundering, if not you open yourself up to being prosecuted for committing money laundering offences if people who use your services are prosecuted for money laundering by way of loans brokered through your platform. Batchoy, FF loans are loans among family members. We don't introduce borrowers to lenders or the other way round. We charge a fee for the services that help our users establish a loan relationship, formalise the arrangement and keep track of repayment schedules. Anyway, i will talk to a local attorney friend to confirm this. Thanks for the advice. People create accounts with CircLender to crowdsource loans from their social circle, there is no loan brokering involve in using our services. All funds are handled offline between FF. I don't see any issue with money laundering via the website. Maybe u can elaborate further. Would love to hear more on this matter.
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Post by batchoy on Feb 8, 2016 20:27:59 GMT
Sorry. My internal monologue got hold of my login. More seriously though, the interesting research would be into the cultural aspects of it. I suspect that FF loans may be considerably more popular in Asia than in the UK? One of the problems in the UK is that Asia and Asian have come to mean the Indian Sub-continent rather than the whole of Asia, however talking about Southeast Asia where I have F&F, F&F loans, and significant business interests yes there is substantially more informal F&F lending that goes on. That said when it comes to formalizing loans in the jurisdiction where I have experience there seems to be a much more of closed shop attitude to legal documents, and whereas you can buy an England and Wales loan agreement for about £30 form WH Smith and have it stand up in court, over there it has to be drawn up by a solicitor for it to carry any weight. Hence my comments hold just as much outside the UK as they do inside the UK.
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 8, 2016 20:29:14 GMT
Sorry yes - by Asia I was specifically thinking Singapore, HK, China as the main countries.
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Post by CircLender on Feb 8, 2016 20:42:26 GMT
CircLender , please don’t take batchoy ’s points the wrong way. In your OP you said “The platform is now ready for thorough testing and scrutiny” & he is actually asking the very questions everyone will have > 1. what could this platform offer me that I don’t already have 2. How ready do they seem to be (if I wanted to support them), including (ofcourse) does it even sound legal I admire your entrepreneurship & determination, but the first thing you will need to do to succeed is convince people of the above. This site might seem (simple graphics etc) an amateur/hobby-ists’ noticeboard but actually there are many very well-informed investors here (don’t know any site anywhere in the world that comes even close to this on P2P). People here will look to support you, & other new providers, IF you can convince them. You may not know but some platforms actually really started out on this forum or are where they are thanks in large part to people’s support here – we love entrepreneurs! Even bigger platforms already quite well established still actively ask for suggestions (or read it) to get lots of ideas on how to improve & further develop their offer. It’s a funny world. I personally think there may be cultural differences which make your proposition difficult to apply here. But we are not biased & basically will support any convincing proposal (it’s in our interest too). Win-win, just please expect the “thorough testing & scrutiny” you asked for. Successful entrepreneurs always listen to the market, & rarely call it “sarcastic” (in public at least). Good luck Ps. whilst I have no reason to trust your integrity, please don’t forget there are many scare stories (& probably lots lots more to come) from the whacky world of P2P. So whilst YOU may be honest there will be OTHERS who could try to follow on your heels that are less so. We don’t actually know who the latest newbie is, so we ask the same questions to everyone. For free Agreed. I started reading the forum no long ago. People here are well equipped with knowledge and experience in p2p lending. I started to see batchoy points from his last comment. Will certainly cross check his facts with local authorities before I proceed further. UK is one of the largest and most sophisticated fintech hub in the world. Is good to explore the viability of an idea from here. I treat cultural differences and diversity in jurisdictions as an opportunity. If I can cope/comply with local requirements (both cultural and legal), I might be able to build a scalable business model for CircLender. Will work towards this direction. Thanks for feedback. Appreciate it.
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Post by batchoy on Feb 8, 2016 20:56:13 GMT
By introducing borrowers and lenders through your loan request service and charging a fee for doing so you are acting as a credit broker. Credit broking services like most financial services are regulated in the UK by the FCA and brokers have to be registered and authorized. Additionally by charging Borrowers upfront for non-refundable time limited credits you are probably breaching UK Credit Broking Regulations, which are anti upfront and non-refundable fees. You need to do more homework before you start operating in any jurisdiction and make sure you are in compliance the local regulations before you start promoting financial services in and allowing people from that jurisdiction to login and create accounts. For example are you aware that there are three different legal systems in the UK, and therefore you are likely to need three different loan agreements if they are to be worth anything in court. Do you have AML procedures in place to spot and report potential money laundering, if not you open yourself up to being prosecuted for committing money laundering offences if people who use your services are prosecuted for money laundering by way of loans brokered through your platform. Batchoy, FF loans are loans among family members. We don't introduce borrowers to lenders or the other way round. We charge a fee for the services that help our users establish a loan relationship, formalise the arrangement and keep track of repayment schedules. Anyway, i will talk to a local attorney friend to confirm this. Thanks for the advice. People creates account with CircLender to crowdsource loans from their social circle, there is no loan brokering involve in using our services. All funds are handled offline between FF. I don't see any issue with money laundering via the website here. Maybe u can elaborate further. Would love to hear more on this matter. Your service still comes within the definition of credit broking as you are passing requests from the borrower to potential lenders with the clear intent to solicit a loan. The fact that the borrower and potential lender know each other does not matter, that fact that your platform a passing these messages with the specific intent to solicit a loan. Additionally the fact that credits to pay are purchased upfront, time expire and are non-refundable means that they would most likely be seen as an upfront fee to use the service which is even worse. When it comes to AML which covers both laundering and funding terrorism, even though some financial organisations are exempt they all have a duty to report knowledge of and suspicions of money laundering and terrorist funding and have systems to do so lest they be prosecuted if someone has used the services for the purposes of laundering or funding terrorism. So for example you would need to look for patterns and overlaps between FF circles where by funds were channeled from one circle to another and so on moving funds in a circle (potential laundering) or channeling it to a single point and across borders (potential terrorist funding). Your platform is ideal for this since it is outside of the regular financial system where AML checking tends to very strict but gives a degree formal evidence to support the legitimacy of financial transactions if they are questioned by a bank or other institution.
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Post by CircLender on Feb 9, 2016 0:49:42 GMT
Batchoy, FF loans are loans among family members. We don't introduce borrowers to lenders or the other way round. We charge a fee for the services that help our users establish a loan relationship, formalise the arrangement and keep track of repayment schedules. Anyway, i will talk to a local attorney friend to confirm this. Thanks for the advice. People creates account with CircLender to crowdsource loans from their social circle, there is no loan brokering involve in using our services. All funds are handled offline between FF. I don't see any issue with money laundering via the website here. Maybe u can elaborate further. Would love to hear more on this matter. Your service still comes within the definition of credit broking as you are passing requests from the borrower to potential lenders with the clear intent to solicit a loan. The fact that the borrower and potential lender know each other does not matter, that fact that your platform a passing these messages with the specific intent to solicit a loan. Additionally the fact that credits to pay are purchased upfront, time expire and are non-refundable means that they would most likely be seen as an upfront fee to use the service which is even worse. When it comes to AML which covers both laundering and funding terrorism, even though some financial organisations are exempt they all have a duty to report knowledge of and suspicions of money laundering and terrorist funding and have systems to do so lest they be prosecuted if someone has used the services for the purposes of laundering or funding terrorism. So for example you would need to look for patterns and overlaps between FF circles where by funds were channeled from one circle to another and so on moving funds in a circle (potential laundering) or channeling it to a single point and across borders (potential terrorist funding). Your platform is ideal for this since it is outside of the regular financial system where AML checking tends to very strict but gives a degree formal evidence to support the legitimacy of financial transactions if they are questioned by a bank or other institution. Noted. Will keep this in mind. I will contact HMRC to find out more. One question, charging small amount of non-refundable upfront credits to prepay future utilization is a common practice for businesses worldwide. Which department or local authority in UK should I talk to on this matter? Am keen to find out more from the authority so that we can comply with the necessary requirements. Having multiple payment options whether prepay or pay per use is only a matter of programming. At this stage, it is important to find out the what and why of the equation. Appreciate if you can point me to the correct direction on this matter. Thanks.
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 9, 2016 1:48:06 GMT
It's the FCA that you need to talk to in the UK...
Have you run this past the Singapore regulators? They are notoriously difficult to deal with and you are going to have to jump through a lot of hoops as lending, to my knowledge, is blanket covered as something that is not permitted unless you gain the exemption.
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Post by gusgorilla on Feb 9, 2016 2:29:57 GMT
I think this idea has a lot of merit and might find a lot more users than you might immediately think. Its main merit is that it could make it socially acceptable for people to approach family, friends and neighbours for a loan for a good purpose. For example somebody might want cash for a piece of vocational education, business equipment or somewhere to live. Young people particularly could use the platform as a way of getting small pledges from a large number of older relatives, friends and neighbours to try to reach their target amount.
I totally get it. All British people like to see a progress bar move towards 100% don't they? A bit like watching the Blue Peter Christmas appeal indicator? A collective warm glow?
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Post by CircLender on Feb 9, 2016 2:30:04 GMT
It's the FCA that you need to talk to in the UK... Have you run this past the Singapore regulators? They are notoriously difficult to deal with and you are going to have to jump through a lot of hoops as lending, to my knowledge, is blanket covered as something that is not permitted unless you gain the exemption. We are talking in the context of AML. I thought HMRC is the right party to go to when come to AML regulations in UK. Correct me if I am wrong. As for regulator in SG. We are not the 1st to operate a p2p business there. And don't operate like a typical lending platform who handle the money for the users. Therefore we will have a different set of rules and regulations to comply compared to what u r doing with ablrate. If you really spend some times understanding my business model, it is a website that offer something similar to a crowdfunding platform who brings borrows and lenders within a social circle together. If a loan is ever committed, we will help the parties to formalise the arrangement with a written promissory note. After that, we provide a set of tools for them to keep track of repayment. Nothing rocket science, and we don't handle people money. A good pointer from forumer here is that we might need different version of promissory notes to make it work in different justification. That's easy, we will just spend 30 pound in UK to get a legal binding doc and modify it as a template from there. With a proper template we then package it with other services of our website and sell it for 5 USD per use. I can even provide a link to local attorney who is willing to partner with us to provide advices for people in UK.
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& basically will support any convincing proposal (it’s in our interest too). Win-win, just please expect the “thorough testing & scrutiny” you asked for.
