littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Mar 13, 2016 19:54:38 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I don't see how other platforms can do that to investors who may be a unaware or like me a bit naïve. It appears that you buy a part loan off an investor at discount or with a premium and also have to pay him the interest that has already accrued because you will be picking that up when the loan terminates. But you are then liable for paying tax on the whole loan. How many people innocently buy on those SM's and get duped? I think everyone hates the FS SM, except higher rate tax payers who avoid their tax and even they will have to offer a hefty discount once people catch on, but FS say their legal advice is that it's the right way to do the tax. No other platform does AFAIK so the advice obviously varies! I would think that people who bought on the SM would have a good claim for compensation from FS.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 13, 2016 21:00:42 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I don't see how other platforms can do that to investors who may be a unaware or like me a bit naïve. It appears that you buy a part loan off an investor at discount or with a premium and also have to pay him the interest that has already accrued because you will be picking that up when the loan terminates. But you are then liable for paying tax on the whole loan. How many people innocently buy on those SM's and get duped? Whilst I don't particularly like the way it operates either, to be fair to FS they have put a very clear warning in a coloured box at the top of their SM page that says: "CAUTION: When buying a loan part you are purchasing the original loan. In line with HMRC rules you will therefore be responsible for any tax liability on all interest paid when the loan completes. As this can result in an overall loss, especially if the loan is repaid early, you should bear this in mind when purchasing on the secondary market. Click here for more information." However I've no doubt that it still catches out a lot of people who assume that all SMs work the same way (which they certainly don't!). The reason the FS system operates as it does is that no interest is paid by FS (or the borrowers) until a loan completes, whereas other platforms pay monthly interest throughout a loan.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Mar 13, 2016 21:35:44 GMT
I don't see how other platforms can do that to investors who may be a unaware or like me a bit naïve. It appears that you buy a part loan off an investor at discount or with a premium and also have to pay him the interest that has already accrued because you will be picking that up when the loan terminates. But you are then liable for paying tax on the whole loan.
I think everyone hates the FS SM, except higher rate tax payers who avoid their tax and even they will have to offer a hefty discount once people catch on, but FS say their legal advice is that it's the right way to do the tax. No other platform does AFAIK so the advice obviously varies! IMHO there isn't actually a difference -- or problem -- with the advice FS have received. The difference is that FS have chosen to pay all the interest earned over the life of a loan to the people holding the loan parts at the time the loan is closed and the interest is paid. And the tax rules seem pretty clear that whomever is paid the interest reports the income and pays any tax due. The two other platforms with SMs that I'm familiar with (AC and SS) don't do that. Instead, they calculate the amount of interest accrued up to the time the part is sold/bought on the SM and then pay that to the seller when the interest payment is received. That might happen within a month (where payments are made monthly), or at maturity (where interest is rolled up during the term of the loan and paid at maturity), or even well after maturity if the borrower doesn't repay on time. In that case, everyone who held parts of a loan over its life will receive their share of the interest, and pay any tax due on that income. The key point is that the difference in tax treatment is purely the result of the difference in the way FS decided to pay the interest. They didn't have to do it that way -- they could have done it the way other platforms do -- but that's what they decided to do. ISTM that the FS method is a lot easier to implement from a platform's point of view and that maybe why FS set up their SM that way. Other platforms may have looked at the results for investors of that method and concluded that they'd rather use a different method that didn't have the same consequences, even though it meant they have to keep track of who is owed how much accrued interest. And when loan parts can be bought and sold multiple times before interest is paid, that has to require a fair amount of record keeping. How many people innocently buy on those SM's and get duped? I would think that people who bought on the SM would have a good claim for compensation from FS. I'm sure that is why FS have tried to make the consequences of SM purchases clearer with the "CAUTION" that caveman38 quoted a bit earlier in this thread, though they didn't do that at first and added that note only after there was a lot of discussion of those consequences here in the forum. They might have done it without needing our prompting -- who knows? An unanswerable question is whether all buyers fully understand the consequences. I suspect there will be some who don't. If that's the case, some will be surprised later. And some of those will complain. How big a stink will result from that is another good question, and that will test the adequacy of the cautionary note. Unfortunately, the result of that will be negative PR for FS even if the cautionary note is held to be adequate in the end.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Mar 13, 2016 21:41:08 GMT
The reason the FS system operates as it does is that no interest is paid by FS (or the borrowers) until a loan completes, whereas other platforms pay monthly interest throughout a loan. As I've noted above, it's the result of a choice FS made. It's not just a consequence of the timing of the interest payments. Some AC loans don't pay interest until maturity, but they don't suffer from the FS 'problem' because AC divide the interest, when it finally is received, among all who have owned parts throughout the life of the loan.
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Post by brianac on Mar 13, 2016 21:53:23 GMT
I think everyone hates the FS SM, except higher rate tax payers who avoid their tax and even they will have to offer a hefty discount once people catch on, but FS say their legal advice is that it's the right way to do the tax. No other platform does AFAIK so the advice obviously varies! IMHO there isn't actually a difference -- or problem -- with the advice FS have received. The difference is that FS have chosen to pay all the interest earned over the life of a loan to the people holding the loan parts at the time the loan is closed and the interest is paid. And the tax rules seem pretty clear that whomever is paid the interest reports the income and pays any tax due. The two other platforms with SMs that I'm familiar with (AC and SS) don't do that. Instead, they calculate the amount of interest accrued up to the time the part is sold/bought on the SM and then pay that to the seller when the interest payment is received. That might happen within a month (where payments are made monthly), or at maturity (where interest is rolled up during the term of the loan and paid at maturity), or even well after maturity if the borrower doesn't repay on time. In that case, everyone who held parts of a loan over its life will receive their share of the interest, and pay any tax due on that income. The key point is that the difference in tax treatment is purely the result of the difference in the way FS decided to pay the interest. They didn't have to do it that way -- they could have done it the way other platforms do -- but that's what they decided to do. ISTM that the FS method is a lot easier to implement from a platform's point of view and that maybe why FS set up their SM that way. Other platforms may have looked at the results for investors of that method and concluded that they'd rather use a different method that didn't have the same consequences, even though it meant they have to keep track of who is owed how much accrued interest. And when loan parts can be bought and sold multiple times before interest is paid, that has to require a fair amount of record keeping. I would think that people who bought on the SM would have a good claim for compensation from FS. I'm sure that is why FS have tried to make the consequences of SM purchases clearer with the "CAUTION" that caveman38 quoted a bit earlier in this thread, though they didn't do that at first and added that note only after there was a lot of discussion of those consequences here in the forum. They might have done it without needing our prompting -- who knows? An unanswerable question is whether all buyers fully understand the consequences. I suspect there will be some who don't. If that's the case, some will be surprised later. And some of those will complain. How big a stink will result from that is another good question, and that will test the adequacy of the cautionary note. Unfortunately, the result of that will be negative PR for FS even if the cautionary note is held to be adequate in the end. Could give some interesting results if the buyer is investing via an IF ISA? now there's something to ponder ... Can't imagine HMRC being too happy with some of the implications that could occur? Brian
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 13, 2016 22:16:16 GMT
IMHO there isn't actually a difference -- or problem -- with the advice FS have received. The difference is that FS have chosen to pay all the interest earned over the life of a loan to the people holding the loan parts at the time the loan is closed and the interest is paid. And the tax rules seem pretty clear that whomever is paid the interest reports the income and pays any tax due. The two other platforms with SMs that I'm familiar with (AC and SS) don't do that. Instead, they calculate the amount of interest accrued up to the time the part is sold/bought on the SM and then pay that to the seller when the interest payment is received. That might happen within a month (where payments are made monthly), or at maturity (where interest is rolled up during the term of the loan and paid at maturity), or even well after maturity if the borrower doesn't repay on time. In that case, everyone who held parts of a loan over its life will receive their share of the interest, and pay any tax due on that income. The key point is that the difference in tax treatment is purely the result of the difference in the way FS decided to pay the interest. They didn't have to do it that way -- they could have done it the way other platforms do -- but that's what they decided to do. ISTM that the FS method is a lot easier to implement from a platform's point of view and that maybe why FS set up their SM that way. Other platforms may have looked at the results for investors of that method and concluded that they'd rather use a different method that didn't have the same consequences, even though it meant they have to keep track of who is owed how much accrued interest. And when loan parts can be bought and sold multiple times before interest is paid, that has to require a fair amount of record keeping. I'm sure that is why FS have tried to make the consequences of SM purchases clearer with the "CAUTION" that caveman38 quoted a bit earlier in this thread, though they didn't do that at first and added that note only after there was a lot of discussion of those consequences here in the forum. They might have done it without needing our prompting -- who knows? An unanswerable question is whether all buyers fully understand the consequences. I suspect there will be some who don't. If that's the case, some will be surprised later. And some of those will complain. How big a stink will result from that is another good question, and that will test the adequacy of the cautionary note. Unfortunately, the result of that will be negative PR for FS even if the cautionary note is held to be adequate in the end. Could give some interesting results if the buyer is investing via an IF ISA? now there's something to ponder ... Can't imagine HMRC being too happy with some of the implications that could occur? Brian I did call HMRC and discussed this with them. Their reply in brief is that P2P is a new industry, still evolving and rules can change (if HMRC start loosing tax).
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 13, 2016 22:23:19 GMT
The reason the FS system operates as it does is that no interest is paid by FS (or the borrowers) until a loan completes, whereas other platforms pay monthly interest throughout a loan. As I've noted above, it's the result of a choice FS made. It's not just a consequence of the timing of the interest payments. Some AC loans don't pay interest until maturity, but they don't suffer from the FS 'problem' because AC divide the interest, when it finally is received, among all who have owned parts throughout the life of the loan. Assuming it was a choice and not just a decision required based on the advice they received that that was the correct way that interest paid at term had to be treated ie that the borrowers debt (including accrued interest) had to passed as a whole to the purchaser and couldnt be sub-divided into interest & capital. AC obviously have made their decision based on different advice. As we have seen there are an number of areas where advice seem to differ, handling of client accounts for instance. Another seems to be the tax treatment of cashback. Most platforms treat it as an incentive to lend & therefore not taxable but I notice from my AC tax statement that they have treated cashback as taxable. Hopefully, with full FCA authorisation & ISA permissions some of these discrepancies will be resolved and clarity provided to lenders, but as we know HMRC are constantly reinterpreting at the margins.
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brin
I am trying to stay calm.
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Post by brin on Mar 13, 2016 22:52:11 GMT
Hello all. glad to be a new contributor , no doubt i will have various silly questions to ask over the coming days, thank you all.
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Mar 13, 2016 23:03:13 GMT
Could give some interesting results if the buyer is investing via an IF ISA? now there's something to ponder ... Can't imagine HMRC being too happy with some of the implications that could occur? Brian I did call HMRC and discussed this with them. Their reply in brief is that P2P is a new industry, still evolving and rules can change (if HMRC start loosing tax). An Fs ISA is potentially part of my 2016 plans. Not buying from myself though.
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brin
I am trying to stay calm.
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Post by brin on Mar 13, 2016 23:25:47 GMT
Am I in the right place as a new member of the forum?
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 13, 2016 23:25:57 GMT
I did call HMRC and discussed this with them. Their reply in brief is that P2P is a new industry, still evolving and rules can change (if HMRC start loosing tax). An Fs ISA is potentially part of my 2016 plans. Not buying from myself though. I am not sure if you will be allowed to buy from yourself, especially in a similar situation as the SM on FS.
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cooling_dude
Bye Bye's for the PPI
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Post by cooling_dude on Mar 13, 2016 23:27:50 GMT
Am I in the right place as a new member of the forum?
Yes. Ask all your newbie questions here However, be sure to study the Q&As on the first post of this thread. You will learn a lot . If after that you have any questions, feel free to ask here
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brin
I am trying to stay calm.
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Post by brin on Mar 13, 2016 23:32:39 GMT
Thank you for taking the time to answer at this time on a sunday night.. much appreciated.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 13, 2016 23:34:56 GMT
cooling_dude is a great guy. As you may know, he hardly need to sleep.
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brin
I am trying to stay calm.
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Post by brin on Mar 13, 2016 23:35:32 GMT
and also I will take your valuable advice.. thanks again
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