Steerpike
Member of DD Central
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Post by Steerpike on Jun 22, 2016 12:00:12 GMT
It will be great to have an extra bank holiday in the summer, June 22nd 23rd Independence Day, hooray for the red white and blue.
A day for fireworks, parades, barbecues, carnivals, fairs, picnics, concerts, football games, family reunions, and political speeches and ceremonies, in addition to various other public and private events celebrating the history, government, and traditions of the United Kingdom.
Woo hoo.
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Post by captainconfident on Jun 22, 2016 12:38:58 GMT
It will be great to have an extra bank holiday in the summer, June 22nd Independence Day, hooray for the red white and blue. A day for fireworks, parades, barbecues, carnivals, fairs, picnics, concerts, football games, family reunions, and political speeches and ceremonies, in addition to various other public and private events celebrating the history, government, and traditions of the United Kingdom. Woo hoo. A bit presumptuous to have independence day a day before the referendum result. I can see us now, dancing round the bonfire of single market regulations. Wearing the rags of our clothing, as it turned out that Botswana didn't need any more widgets.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 22, 2016 12:40:58 GMT
Jaydee we seem to agree on a lot so I'll just pick up on some of the areas where we disagree. Firstly there is a much wider and more complicated discussion to be had about how the EU responds to the refugee crisis. Having said that, focussing just on the points you make on migration:- 1. It is, I think, accepted by both sides that immigration is a net postive for the UK economy. If that's correct your points about benefits are essentially invalid. 2. The vast majority of the "people flooding through southern Europe" are refugees, not economic migrants. 3. Seeing as the majority of these refugees head towards Germany you simply cannot assert that "... whose only purpose is to get to England...." (ignoring the lax benefits point with which I disagree anyway). On border free travel, I don't have the figures to hand but I believe an additional benefit to be had from it is the ease of trading between European nations. I read somewhere recently (The Economist?) that it significantly reduces the costs of trade (eg saves the haulage industry £x billion a year?, and many people in border regions work cross border). That means efficiency, which in nation state terms means increased productivity. And that, absent an increasing population and / or spending less, is the only way in which any country can reduce its national debt.
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max
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Post by max on Jun 22, 2016 12:41:18 GMT
earthbound , I said I'd come back to it, here I am. I'll try to keep it as brief as possible (ha! I've just re-read it and it turned into a bit of an epic, you might want to make a cup of tea before sitting down to read it), but this means that inevitably I will gloss over and / or omit some things. Apologies in advance - I'll also likely get some things wrong  . Brexit concerns about pressure on services (ie caused by immigration)Firstly I would acknowledge that in some areas high immigration has caused immense pressure on local services. Secondly I would acknowledge that some immigrant communities have failed to integrate well. I see this primarily as a failing of successive governments to manage the situation, not even well, but at all. I do not see this as a problem caused by "the immigrants" per se. Governments have also failed to communicate with the public about their failings and what they intend to do about it (no surprise really, I can't think of a government that has ever held their hand up and said "sorry we messed that up"). This has in turn allowed a space to grow in which the prevailing discussion (inflamed by some right wing press) has been allowed to be redirected from "it's our fault" to "it's their fault". Introspection is a much harder sell than pointing the finger at "others". Add to this fact successive governments' underfunding of the NHS and the education sector - just look at the news this week about the withdrawal of bursaries for student nurses - and you just exacerbate the problem. Compounding all of this are demographics - an ageing population a) earns less and b) needs more in terms of healthcare. Note that nowhere above do I talk about any of the many benefits of immigration (eg that immigrants make up 10% of the NHS workforce or that they contribute positively to the economy overall etc). Some people say that migrants use less public services cause they are young and fit and pay taxes cause they work - the best people to invite at the party who bring wine they don't even drink. So, where has the tax revenue from migrants gone? Why I cannot see that new hospital or new school being build or even planned? Why my glass is empty? Ah, yes, I almost forgot, migrant tax revenue has joined Britons in bailing out the banks in 2009. A total of 133 Billion cash plus 1 Trillion in guarantee commitments. But not a word. We will get our schools and hospitals back once migration will be under control. The end of the tunnel is close. Ref: www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/
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Post by captainconfident on Jun 22, 2016 12:45:48 GMT
earthbound , I said I'd come back to it, here I am. I'll try to keep it as brief as possible (ha! I've just re-read it and it turned into a bit of an epic, you might want to make a cup of tea before sitting down to read it), but this means that inevitably I will gloss over and / or omit some things. Apologies in advance - I'll also likely get some things wrong . Brexit concerns about pressure on services (ie caused by immigration)Firstly I would acknowledge that in some areas high immigration has caused immense pressure on local services. Secondly I would acknowledge that some immigrant communities have failed to integrate well. I see this primarily as a failing of successive governments to manage the situation, not even well, but at all. I do not see this as a problem caused by "the immigrants" per se. Governments have also failed to communicate with the public about their failings and what they intend to do about it (no surprise really, I can't think of a government that has ever held their hand up and said "sorry we messed that up"). This has in turn allowed a space to grow in which the prevailing discussion (inflamed by some right wing press) has been allowed to be redirected from "it's our fault" to "it's their fault". Introspection is a much harder sell than pointing the finger at "others". Add to this fact successive governments' underfunding of the NHS and the education sector - just look at the news this week about the withdrawal of bursaries for student nurses - and you just exacerbate the problem. Compounding all of this are demographics - an ageing population a) earns less and b) needs more in terms of healthcare. Note that nowhere above do I talk about any of the many benefits of immigration (eg that immigrants make up 10% of the NHS workforce or that they contribute positively to the economy overall etc). Some people say that migrants use less public services cause they are young and fit and pay taxes cause they work - the best people to invite at the party who bring wine they don't even drink. So, where has the tax revenue from migrants gone? Why I cannot see that new hospital or new school being build or even planned? Why my glass is empty? Ah, yes, I almost forgot, migrant tax revenue has joined Britons in bailing out the banks in 2009. A total of 113 Billion cash plus 1 Trillion in guarantee commitments. But not a word. We will get our schools and hospitals back once migration will be under control. The end of the tunnel is close. Ref: www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/ No, max. If immigrants generate more in taxes than they take from the system, failure in provision in schooling or hospitals is a governmental failure,andnothing to do with this debate.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,330
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 22, 2016 12:47:42 GMT
It will be great to have an extra bank holiday in the summer, June 22nd Independence Day, hooray for the red white and blue. A day for fireworks, parades, barbecues, carnivals, fairs, picnics, concerts, football games, family reunions, and political speeches and ceremonies, in addition to various other public and private events celebrating the history, government, and traditions of the United Kingdom. Woo hoo. A bit presumptuous to have independence day a day before the referendum result. I can see us now, dancing round the bonfire of single market regulations. Wearing the rags of our clothing, as it turned out that Botswana didn't need any more widgets. Film opens at midnight tonight, unusual for the Americans to turn up early to such an event 
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Post by captainconfident on Jun 22, 2016 12:54:09 GMT
A bit presumptuous to have independence day a day before the referendum result. I can see us now, dancing round the bonfire of single market regulations. Wearing the rags of our clothing, as it turned out that Botswana didn't need any more widgets. Film opens at midnight tonight, unusual for the Americans to turn up early to such an event And Donald Trump is arriving. Co-incidence? He is coming to advise how to construct the wall.
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Steerpike
Member of DD Central
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Post by Steerpike on Jun 22, 2016 13:09:40 GMT
Film opens at midnight tonight, unusual for the Americans to turn up early to such an event And Donald Trump is arriving. Co-incidence? He is coming to advise how to construct the wall. Wall, yes, gosh we'll need lots of low paid builders, where can we get those?
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Post by captainconfident on Jun 22, 2016 13:18:04 GMT
Answer would be, we make the French pay for it.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,330
Likes: 11,549
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 22, 2016 13:39:46 GMT
Answer would be, we make the French pay for it. The last defence barrier the French built proved somewhat unsuccessful due to lack of foresight and some cheating on the part of the other side. I would suggest the Chinese are probably a better bet when it comes to building walls and the Italian seem to be reasonable at knocking up something to last 
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Post by earthbound on Jun 22, 2016 13:51:30 GMT
But don't let Italians build any towers. |
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Post by captainconfident on Jun 22, 2016 14:41:27 GMT
The FX markets seem to be pricing a Remain vote but tomorrow looks like Brexit weather. I'm actively buying Euros today @1.30
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 22, 2016 14:43:54 GMT
I hope you have at least some faith in our democracy / democratic system. None whatsoever, this article explains why many people feel that way: www.ft.com/cms/s/2/63beb670-321f-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.htmlNo doubt there will be some sneering comments from those who have moved to more salubrious parts of the country.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 22, 2016 15:09:43 GMT
Its coincidental that you should mention the fact that you have 'unfriended' someone due to an unsavory photo, (actually i agree with you) , what would you say to my 77 year old dad, who lost his dad in WW2 and says to me "My dad would be turning in his grave if he could now see how the EU is now influenced by Germany and France" his insinuation is nothing more or less than your ex-friends picture, unsavory or not. I have had the same picture shared with me today, not by an (ex)friend but by a relative who grew up during WWII and who lost a number of direct relatives to the war, who has similar sentiments. He also voted 'Yes' in the last referendum and feels aggrieved that he was sold a lie by the politicians then and that we are being sold a similar lie by the current remain campaign because they are attempting to scare people over the money in their pocket rather than addressing the issues that actually concern people. “they are attempting to scare people over the money in their pocket rather than addressing the issues that actually concern people.” That sums up the arrogance of the out of touch elites and politicians of all hues, most of who have never had jobs in the real economy including Jo Cox and her dubious husband yet earn sums of money which many people can only dream about: www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/11/31577/Before anyone complains, the following is in the public domain: www.thirdsector.co.uk/save-children-refuses-comment-allegations-against-former-director-policy-brendan-cox/management/article/1370951
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Liz
Member of DD Central
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Post by Liz on Jun 22, 2016 15:17:47 GMT
It will be great to have an extra bank holiday in the summer, June 22nd 23rd Independence Day, hooray for the red white and blue. A day for fireworks, parades, barbecues, carnivals, fairs, picnics, concerts, football games, family reunions, and political speeches and ceremonies, in addition to various other public and private events celebrating the history, government, and traditions of the United Kingdom. Woo hoo. I'm surprised Leave haven't offered an extra bank holiday, would probably swing it for a lot of people Politicians always offer sweeteners, on he eve of an election.
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