|
|
Post by Butch Cassidy on Apr 19, 2017 8:59:58 GMT
I just don't share your concerns; LEAVE MEANS LEAVE, there simply isn't any hard/soft, red/white/blue variant - the shape of the future relationship with EU will be the subject of the negotiations but give the EU's track record I would say walking away without agreement is still a likely outcome but that means WTO most favoured nations terms which are nothing to worry about - it is the same terms that most other countries in the world trade under. Some agreement may also be possible when the French, German electors get their say, not just EU Eurocrats but as I say even the so called "worst case" scenario is nothing that this country can't cope with.
We are never going to agree on the details but have faith in the people of this great country; whatever the final deal we can make a success out of it & the extra flexibility, nimbleness & freedom we have outside the EU will guarantee a wonderful future for all of us - trust the people.
|
|
JamesFrance
Member of DD Central
Port Grimaud 1974
Posts: 1,323 
Likes: 897
|
Post by JamesFrance on Apr 19, 2017 9:23:52 GMT
If one were to stay in the single market and the customs union I don't see how there is much else to leave. To me those two things are the EU. That is the whole point of leaving surely.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,015
Likes: 5,144
|
Post by adrianc on Apr 19, 2017 9:25:59 GMT
I just don't share your concerns; LEAVE MEANS LEAVE, there simply isn't any hard/soft, red/white/blue variant - the shape of the future relationship with EU will be the subject of the negotiations So we're going into those negotiations with no aims, no objectives, no targets, no red lines? Great. That'll really work well for us. Exactly. All those countries that don't have trade deals between each other. VAT and tariffs on all imports from the EU, something-to-declare channels at Dover, and all the other pains in the backside that will massively increase costs to businesses working across the currently-transparent border. Wave goodbye to a very large proportion of the city's finance industry. Wave goodbye to a lot of manufacturing. But it's OK, because Boris and Nigel said all will be fluffy and lovely. Oh, wait. No. They said that there would be trade deals in place, and we wouldn't have to fight through the WTO defaults. Oh, wait. I forgot. They need us more than we need them, right? <snigger>
|
|
|
|
Post by davee39 on Apr 19, 2017 11:31:36 GMT
Aside from Europe no commentators have noticed the economic agenda.
A change in NI for the Self Employed planned in the Spring Budget was aborted due to pledges made in 2015 to cover the life of this parliament
- No rise in income tax, VAT or NI
- Triple Lock on state pensions
- No means testing of pensioner benefits
The treasury urgently needs to increase tax revenue due to
- up-rating pensions by > 3%
- struggling health, education and social care
- need to cut corporation tax to maintain foreign investment post Brexit
- Rising interest costs of Govt debt if US Rates continue to rise
- deficit not being cut quickly enough
I predict the following for the Autumn Budget
VAT to rise to 22%
NI to rise generally by 1%, 2% for the Self Employed - to Fund the NHS
Weaken the triple lock to be fairer to low paid workers
Means test for Pensioner Benefits (Eg Winter Fuel Allowance)
Numerous stealthy tax changes elsewhere
Really I would be more than happy if the sums added up under the oppositions tax the rich options, but they don't, so stand by for the nasty medicine.
|
|
|
|
Post by yorkshireman on Apr 19, 2017 12:52:03 GMT
Really I would be more than happy if the sums added up under the oppositions tax the rich options. That could make you extremely unpopular on this forum sir! 
|
|
toffeeboy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 538
Likes: 385
|
Post by toffeeboy on Apr 19, 2017 13:03:39 GMT
It's not about leave-or-remain.
It's about the way in which we're leaving.The referendum didn't give any indication as to how "hard" the brexit would be. All the leave campaign promised a very, very soft brexit - yet we're heading for the hardest of hard. Who voted for that? A minority of that 37.5%, I'd suggest. And that's before we get on to the outright lies in the campaign. Remember that big red bus...? If what we're getting is what'd been described last May and June, we would not be here now. Likewise I too greatly value and accept the Democracy into which I inherited from those who had gone before. And as adrianc has expressed I too am concerned about the way in which we are leaving, there are deep divisions which seriously risk tearing us apart, as a Scotsman living in Scotland I am keenly aware of these and are faced almost daily with hearing a conversational debate reflecting a wider a Scottish discussion. Brexit and in particular a hard Brexit will only serve to further the SNP cause North of the Border, Scotland did Not vote for Brexit neither did Northern Ireland, our Capital City London or for that matter our Gibraltarian countrymen/women. Without Unity, without an agreed UK wide negotiating position how can we ever hope to stand together as One people as One United Kingdom, with One voice? Some may suggest that Scotland should go it's own way but we should never forget the staggering commitment made by 4 generations of men to Unify our Stubborn, Proud peoples, that huge commitment took over 100 years to bear fruit and the tragedy in this time is that we risk a return to a situation where we are constantly at each others throats, constantly trying to out do one another, constantly bickering; Heaven help us if this becomes the ultimate price we all pay for Brexit. Hard? we have no idea just how hard it will be, no idea of the wider implication's to our collective disunity. I am exceptionally proud to have been born in Perth, Scotland equally I am exceptionally proud and honoured to be part of a far greater United Kingdom. These Islands are our Home, we should together find a way in which we can face Our future together as One. What part of Great Britain vote don't you get? Scotland didn't vote, NI didn't vote, London didn't vote the whole of Great Britain voted and the majority of those who voted chose to vote for Great Britain to leave the EU. The people causing the divide are people like yourselves and Sturgeon who now chose to say well we voted to remain so Brexit is causing a divide, no you are causing a divide by referring back to the referendum result and splitting it by regions. The result was we leave the EU, we are leaving the EU so get over it.
No we don't know how hard Brexit will be, but I and a lot of people that I know voted leave because we don't like the way things are now. Nobody knows what the future under Brexit will hold but I didn't like the way things were as part of the EU and I have faith in the British people and our leaders that we can improve our lives by making our own choices. The common market worked and was a good thing originally that benefited all it's members, the EU doesn't work, the members are too varied and want different things.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on Apr 19, 2017 13:50:24 GMT
Play nice everybody. If this turns into a repeat of the previous EU / Brexit thread it'll end up locked.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on Apr 19, 2017 14:42:56 GMT
Not much point me voting. I'd vote Lib/Lab but my constituency has a significant Tory majority. I find it hard to have any interest in the UK democratic process when first-past-the-post means my vote will never count. Of course the feudal overlords in the Tory party like it that way. The're too busy "taking back control" and wouldn't want serfs like me getting in the way. I'd probably vote Con/Lib, but my constituency has a significant Labour majority (and an MP who, if he were in any party other than Labour, I'd vote for). I'll still vote (possibly spoil), mainly because I think it is important to do so.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,015
Likes: 5,144
|
Post by adrianc on Apr 19, 2017 15:21:00 GMT
Not much point me voting. I'd vote Lib/Lab but my constituency has a significant Tory majority. I find it hard to have any interest in the UK democratic process when first-past-the-post means my vote will never count. Of course your vote counts. It counts towards selecting your constituency's representative in Westminster. The single best candidate from those standing to represent you. 'course, it's made much harder by people who will vote for any old half-wit based on whether the colour of their ribbon matches their grandparents' job or life... If more people started to actually look at who they're voting for, there'd be some very big changes in very short order. And that can only be for the better - because the big parties would have to actually consider constituents, rather than just national ambition. This is a safe Tory constituency. 2015 was an odd one, because of the kippers and the "punishment" of the LDs for actually keeping a lid on the worst of the Tories in the coalition... Looking at 2010, the majority was just under 10,000 - yet 19,000 didn't bother to vote.
|
|
bigfoot12
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 816
|
Post by bigfoot12 on Apr 19, 2017 15:31:59 GMT
Not much point me voting. I'd vote Lib/Lab but my constituency has a significant Tory majority. I find it hard to have any interest in the UK democratic process when first-past-the-post means my vote will never count. Of course your vote counts. I'm with samford71 on this. At the last election I worked out (well actually guessed a few numbers and multiplied them together) that I was more likely to be hit by a car on the way to the polling station than my vote making a difference. (I still voted.) It might different this time. I hope Lord Ashcroft keeps polling.
|
|
pikestaff
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,187
Likes: 1,546
|
Post by pikestaff on Apr 19, 2017 17:11:03 GMT
Not much point me voting. I'd vote Lib/Lab but my constituency has a significant Tory majority. I find it hard to have any interest in the UK democratic process when first-past-the-post means my vote will never count. Of course the feudal overlords in the Tory party like it that way. The're too busy "taking back control" and wouldn't want serfs like me getting in the way. I vote on principle despite being in a similar position to you. (Also, I take the view that no vote against Nadine Dorries is a wasted vote.) I have voted Tory only once, in 1994 when Edwina Currie stood as our Euro candidate against a Labour anti-marketeer. The Labour person got in and as far as I could tell did nothing useful during her entire term.
|
|
IFISAcava
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 3,018
|
Post by IFISAcava on Apr 19, 2017 17:22:08 GMT
You don't unite a country after a 51.9%/48.1% split by taking an extreme approach to Brexit, telling the 48.9% they are "remoaners" or "enemies of the people", or telling Londoners and Scots that London/Scotland are not legitimate entities whose opinion matters (when in fact they have a significant degree of autonomy/self government, and many people think they should have more). The tyranny of the (tiny) majority is not unity. Unless the current approach changes, the growing divide in the UK, or what remains of it, will be seen very clearly in years to come, and the PMs hollow assertion that we are "coming together" will be but a pipe dream.
|
|
|
|
Post by yorkshireman on Apr 19, 2017 20:51:05 GMT
Not much point me voting. I'd vote Lib/Lab but my constituency has a significant Tory majority. I find it hard to have any interest in the UK democratic process when first-past-the-post means my vote will never count. Of course the feudal overlords in the Tory party like it that way. The're too busy "taking back control" and wouldn't want serfs like me getting in the way. Spoken like a true champagne socialist, you would vote for a party that would tax the 'rich' earning more than £70,000: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-rich-tax-increase-70000-income-raise-money-john-mcdonnell-public-services-funding-party-a7690156.htmlThen, if Labour did win and introduce that level of taxation, no doubt you would take flight and relocate to a more friendly tax environment whilst those less fortunate than you would be left to pick up the tab for socialist incompetence. Socialist hypocrisy at it’s worst.
|
|
stub8535
Member of DD Central
personal opinions only. Not qualified to advise on investment products.
Posts: 1,447
Likes: 945
|
Post by stub8535 on Apr 19, 2017 21:00:00 GMT
I find some of the ill informed comments on here show the lack of historical knowledge is abundant.
First, the people of Great Brittain did not vote to leave the EU. The people of the united kingdom of Great Brittain and Northern Ireland voted thus.
Next, the elligibility to vote for all classes of people has been hard won. To not use your vote is lunacy. Some parties will use this in their planning of campaigns.
The vote of the tiny population of one constituent part of our kingdom in an undemocratic referendum was, and remains, wrong. A referendum asking people to vote whether to split the union, open to all citizens of the United Kingdom, would be truly democratic.
As for people quoting the percentages that voted for exit or not, this does not take into account the people who were unable or couldn't be bothered to vote.
It is vital for everyone who is elligible to go and cast a vote for the local candidate that most closely represents their own views.
Ignore party leadership as of low relevance compared to the local one.
We are not a presidency where we are electing a head of state.
Do not waste your vote by thinking in this way please.
|
|
guff
Posts: 730
Likes: 707
|
Post by guff on Apr 19, 2017 22:13:16 GMT
As for people quoting the percentages that voted for exit or not, this does not take into account the people who were unable or couldn't be bothered to vote. It also does not take into account the millions of expats who were denied a referendum vote, having lived abroad for more than 15 years. But at least the last Conservative manifesto promised to put that right in time for the 2020 General Election and give them a vote in the constituency in which they last lived.
|
|
