ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,168 
Likes: 4,859
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Post by ozboy on Aug 2, 2017 15:27:49 GMT
They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Wow anyone paying 6 figures for that seriously has too much $$$ Like most of us I've met numerous Arty Farty types over the years and in my experience the uglier the "piece" (notice I'm being all Arty Farty) the more bananas they seem to go for it. In which case I, like you badboyyardy, then "go figure"!!! 
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Post by richardthe4th on Aug 2, 2017 15:37:02 GMT
I don't know a lot about the art world but point (4) does seem to quite a fundamental mistake, when you're valuing something at £1million +.
I'm inclined to wonder if other mistakes have been made that haven't come to light yet.
Perhaps a new valuation is in order?
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greatmarko
Member of DD Central
Posts: 343
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Post by greatmarko on Aug 2, 2017 15:58:06 GMT
How can you remove your bid? I thought is was final? If the loan hasn't yet been activated, you can phone up and ask. At least that's what I did once. I don't think FS are under any obligation to cancel your bid, but if you ask nicely they may do it for you. You can also do this via the Live Chat on their website - I've just cancelled by bid on this loan in light of the information that's since come to light.
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max
Posts: 75
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Post by max on Aug 2, 2017 18:11:19 GMT
FS have now posted an update on the loan to "address" the concerns raised here... " We have received a number of questions concerning media reports that the authenticity of some of Francis Bacon’s pieces are disputed. We have spoken with the valuer on this subject who has pointed out the following:
1. This piece was never part of the disputed collection
2. This piece is a pastel whereas the disputed pieces have all been prints.
3. This piece was part of a wider collection, parts of which were subsequently sold to T** T*** G******
4. The piece was never exhibited at T** H****** G****** and should therefore not be associated with the article in the Daily Telegraph. The valuer apologises for this error in the valuation report.
5. In the valuer’s opinion, this piece is completely genuine, the signature being “spot on”." ...is anyone reassured by this? It worked with me. Expecially #3 & #4. I invested. However, original VR is poor and ridiculously short. We deserve better for lending half a million+.
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oldgrumpy
Member of DD Central
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Post by oldgrumpy on Aug 2, 2017 18:39:13 GMT
The historical (business) relationship between the "valuer" and the borrower might be worth scrutiny. FS, have you considered this?
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daveb4
Member of DD Central
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Post by daveb4 on Aug 2, 2017 19:19:06 GMT
Do art valuers have PI cover like property valuers? This is not me starting another rant about valuers, just if we can have any comeback if things go wrong.
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Post by eascogo on Aug 2, 2017 19:46:18 GMT
Do art valuers have PI cover like property valuers? This is not me starting another rant about valuers, just if we can have any comeback if things go wrong. The valuation is made "Without prejudice" so recourse to a comeback is likely to lead nowhere. The standing/authority of the valuer could reassure if available.
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Post by diversifier on Aug 2, 2017 20:34:36 GMT
I'm fairly sure this is a wrong'un, at least from an investment perspective.
The valuation says that the provenance is Inheritance via David Edwards.
Google "David Edwards" "Francis Bacon", and you'll find the whole sorry tale. The long and short, is that this *is* disputed, and the court has already ruled, twice, that it is a fake, in 2013
The *valuation* surely has to be a median less-than-half estimate of value-if-genuine. *At best* the LTV is over 100%.
I won't judge, and maybe it is even genuine. But then The Owner is making the best of a bad fist, and probably intending to default, leaving FS recovery the legal bill to prove its authenticity. He is bankrupt by the way.....
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rs
Member of DD Central
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Post by rs on Aug 2, 2017 20:43:27 GMT
I'm fairly sure this is a wrong'un, at least from an investment perspective. The valuation says that the provenance is Inheritance via David Edwards. Google "David Edwards" "Francis Bacon", and you'll find the whole sorry tale. The long and short, is that this *is* disputed, and the court has already ruled, twice, that it is a fake, in 2013 The *valuation* surely has to be a median less-than-half estimate of value-if-genuine. *At best* the LTV is over 100%. I won't judge, and maybe it is even genuine. But then The Owner is making the best of a bad fist, and probably intending to default, leaving FS recovery the legal bill to prove its authenticity. He is bankrupt by the way..... seems like FS will have to withdraw the loan if they are informed about this. Interested to see what happens with this loan.
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oldgrumpy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,087
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Post by oldgrumpy on Aug 2, 2017 22:56:38 GMT
I'm fairly sure this is a wrong'un, at least from an investment perspective. The valuation says that the provenance is Inheritance via David Edwards. Google "David Edwards" "Francis Bacon", and you'll find the whole sorry tale. The long and short, is that this *is* disputed, and the court has already ruled, twice, that it is a fake, in 2013 The *valuation* surely has to be a median less-than-half estimate of value-if-genuine. *At best* the LTV is over 100%. I won't judge, and maybe it is even genuine. But then The Owner is making the best of a bad fist, and probably intending to default, leaving FS recovery the legal bill to prove its authenticity. He is bankrupt by the way.....Who is? Not the borrower, surely?
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debaura
Member of DD Central
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Post by debaura on Aug 2, 2017 23:48:09 GMT
I actually think this loan is fine. My 6th sense tells me so and I have yet to be wrong on over £200k of investments.
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Post by diversifier on Aug 3, 2017 7:16:26 GMT
Do we know who the borrower is?
But if it is David Edwards, the guy who inherited it, according to those newspaper articles, the very potted history seems to be:
Allegedly (I.e. Only my interpretation)
He tried to sell this and other similar Bacons, then the buyers sued him. He transferred his assets to his partner Tanner. Then he lost the court case, plus on appeal, and filed bankruptcy to avoid legal costs, in 2013. There's a mansion involved, an Italian graphologist, family rifts etc on the way.
It would make an epic movie. And even: financing such court cases is an investable market in itself. But here, the LTV isn't paying for that.
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oldgrumpy
Member of DD Central
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Post by oldgrumpy on Aug 3, 2017 8:01:02 GMT
Do we know who the borrower is?But if it is David Edwards, the guy who inherited it, according to those newspaper articles, the very potted history seems to be: Allegedly (I.e. Only my interpretation) He tried to sell this and other similar Bacons, then the buyers sued him. He transferred his assets to his partner Tanner. Then he lost the court case, plus on appeal, and filed bankruptcy to avoid legal costs, in 2013. There's a mansion involved, an Italian graphologist, family rifts etc on the way. It would make an epic movie. And even: financing such court cases is an investable market in itself. But here, the LTV isn't paying for that. We are not told. We have to find out. Our poor moderators can't moderate us for naming the borrower if we don't know who the borrower is. I very much doubt FS are lending to a known bankrupt with allegedly dodgy art as security, so it won't be Edwards. So, the borrower has acquired the art work to put up as security but on whose behalf is he(she) trying to raise more than half a million quid? Himself, or someone else? Epic movie indeed .... and it makes a change from the boatyard, Rishton, power boat, Whitehaven, Londonderry and the wind turbine.
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rs
Member of DD Central
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Post by rs on Aug 3, 2017 8:02:30 GMT
Does make you wonder if the painting was painted by Bacon? As for the bankrupt borrower, well strange he's bankrupt but able to put this asset on FS! The plot will eventually lead to Trump & Russians no doubt.
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debaura
Member of DD Central
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Post by debaura on Aug 3, 2017 8:30:04 GMT
Someone has put £100k on it. I hope they don't retrospectively pop back and read this thread!  Well he/she is bagging a 16% return for six months which comes to a cool £8,000 .......... just so long as the painting wasn't composed by a 6 year old during a tantrum , because that's what it looks like  I would want a lot more than £8k.
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