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Post by elephantrosie on Aug 23, 2017 8:59:50 GMT
As everyone says it depends. Although the divi allowance is dropping you could make several family members shareholders (perhaps) distributing your wealth efficiently. Depending in the time it takes to admin the company you could also employ family member to do this and use up any of their remaining tax-free allowance. There are some other benefits - 'trivial gifts', annual parties, other small stuff, that may or may not apply/appeal in your case. I am unsure what special rules surround companies primarily set up as investment vehicles. If you are were planning to non-res for long enough (its no longer only a full year) that might be an escape?*Edit: One thing you might (not) care about is the added complexity of winding up where there is almost certainly going to be a hangover from distressed loans. I don't know enough about this to know how much of a headache it is(n't). what is the dividend allowance allowed now? what do you mean by non-res for long enough? thanks for the other tips.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 23, 2017 9:09:45 GMT
What did you mean by your last sentence? See hereAre you saying that you record impairments in your annual accounts even though you haven't actually suffered any loss? How about when a loan actually sells or repays without loss - is that impairment then reversed?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Aug 23, 2017 9:24:17 GMT
Are you saying that you record impairments in your annual accounts even though you haven't actually suffered any loss? How about when a loan actually sells or repays without loss - is that impairment then reversed? Yes, as required under IFRS9, and Yes, although in practice an assessment is made at each year-end across the entire live loan book and any change in the aggregate impairment allowance goes to the P&L. So a £1000 loan that repays in full in the year releases the impairment allowance made for it, but a new impairment allowance would be assessed and reserved if that capital had been re-lent in the year to another borrower.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 23, 2017 9:31:28 GMT
Are you saying that you record impairments in your annual accounts even though you haven't actually suffered any loss? How about when a loan actually sells or repays without loss - is that impairment then reversed? Yes, as required under IFRS9, and Yes, although in practice an assessment is made at each year-end across the entire live loan book and any change in the aggregate impairment allowance goes to the P&L. So a £1000 loan that repays in full in the year releases the impairment allowance made for it, but a new impairment allowance would be assessed and reserved if that capital had been re-lent in the year to another borrower. That seems like a lot of work and I'm not sure what the benefit is. For a big financial institution, I can see the value but for small fry like us, what advantage is there over just recording crystallised losses.
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 23, 2017 9:40:10 GMT
I invest in P2P with some of the surplus funds from 2 Limited companies I have which I used for Consultancy Businesses while I drain them down each year. I also do all my own accounts but either have to pay for submission software or get an accountant to submit them as they are too complicated for HMRC standard software.
As this is an investment vehicle it will be treated as an investment company by HMRC, probably makes very little difference to you but there are differences to normal companies e.g. how expenses are handled and it is useful to know the rules.
As the income is interest you will pay corporation tax unless taken as salary and expenses, the salary will be subject to income tax and National insurance if over the limits but this can be reduced by the company putting some/all of this money into a pension scheme.
You can get some expenses free of tax, these are either billable like computer equipment, percentage of household bills (say 10%) or fixed unreceipted like office costs £216 per year and Christmas party £150 per head. If you do this my advice is to keep it simple and keep the claims small otherwise you may have HMRC on you back.
You can offset income to future years to avoid higher tax rates but this is a complex area because if you make a loss (expenses, accountant fees etc) you will need to decide the type of expense incurred as I believe administrative expenses cannot be carried forward for investment companies but management expenses can. This area is a minefield and I have had arguments with accountants who are saying most of my expenses are administrative but I managed to prove them wrong from accounting and HMRCs websites. In short there is no definitive answer and I find that most accountants take a conservative view and you will need a lot of time researching to prove them wrong (some will not like this) and get the best case for you. I find small accountants generally are not geared up for this type of business as they tend to handle trading companies.
Also making tax digital which is due to come in soon may mean additional expenses of record keeping and 4 submissions a year but this keeps changing.
One area that is good is that there is effectively no corporation tax on dividends, not so useful for UK companies but saves money on foreign companies and unit trusts.
The question is it worth it? If you have the time and can do the accounts yourself there are some advantages but I would say not as the costs (if using an accountant) and the hassle outweigh the benefits. I only do this as I have some companies with money in them that would be very expensive from the tax side to shut them down until I have drained them of most of the funds.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Aug 23, 2017 9:41:29 GMT
Yes, as required under IFRS9, and Yes, although in practice an assessment is made at each year-end across the entire live loan book and any change in the aggregate impairment allowance goes to the P&L. So a £1000 loan that repays in full in the year releases the impairment allowance made for it, but a new impairment allowance would be assessed and reserved if that capital had been re-lent in the year to another borrower. That seems like a lot of work and I'm not sure what the benefit is. For a big financial institution, I can see the value but for small fry like us, what advantage is there over just recording crystallised losses. Not much in fully-diversified settled-down mode, but quite a bit in years 1 and 2, or if you ramp up lending significantly, or have some individual large exposures. Also, as I understand it, IFRS9 will eventually be expected of all companies holding "financial instruments" so it made sense to adopt the accounting standard from the outset. In practice, it amounts to a couple of hours work at each year-end and avoided paying a fair chunk of tax in Year 1 and 2 that would ultimately have been clawed back in later years. It also reminds me annually that I'm not really making 12-13% (more like 8% in reality after likely bad debt).
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Aug 23, 2017 10:09:29 GMT
As everyone says it depends. Although the divi allowance is dropping you could make several family members shareholders (perhaps) distributing your wealth efficiently. Depending in the time it takes to admin the company you could also employ family member to do this and use up any of their remaining tax-free allowance. There are some other benefits - 'trivial gifts', annual parties, other small stuff, that may or may not apply/appeal in your case. I am unsure what special rules surround companies primarily set up as investment vehicles. If you are were planning to non-res for long enough (its no longer only a full year) that might be an escape?*Edit: One thing you might (not) care about is the added complexity of winding up where there is almost certainly going to be a hangover from distressed loans. I don't know enough about this to know how much of a headache it is(n't). what is the dividend allowance allowed now? what do you mean by non-res for long enough? thanks for the other tips. £5k Some people (including me) have strong ties to other countries (my SO even stronger ties). It would not be out of the question for me to consider living there for 5 years in order to avoid capital gains if the situation warranted it (and it was likely to work).
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Post by elephantrosie on Aug 23, 2017 10:41:25 GMT
I invest in P2P with some of the surplus funds from 2 Limited companies I have which I used for Consultancy Businesses while I drain them down each year. I also do all my own accounts but either have to pay for submission software or get an accountant to submit them as they are too complicated for HMRC standard software. As this is an investment vehicle it will be treated as an investment company by HMRC, probably makes very little difference to you but there are differences to normal companies e.g. how expenses are handled and it is useful to know the rules. As the income is interest you will pay corporation tax unless taken as salary and expenses, the salary will be subject to income tax and National insurance if over the limits but this can be reduced by the company putting some/all of this money into a pension scheme. You can get some expenses free of tax, these are either billable like computer equipment, percentage of household bills (say 10%) or fixed unreceipted like office costs £216 per year and Christmas party £150 per head. If you do this my advice is to keep it simple and keep the claims small otherwise you may have HMRC on you back. You can offset income to future years to avoid higher tax rates but this is a complex area because if you make a loss (expenses, accountant fees etc) you will need to decide the type of expense incurred as I believe administrative expenses cannot be carried forward for investment companies but management expenses can. This area is a minefield and I have had arguments with accountants who are saying most of my expenses are administrative but I managed to prove them wrong from accounting and HMRCs websites. In short there is no definitive answer and I find that most accountants take a conservative view and you will need a lot of time researching to prove them wrong (some will not like this) and get the best case for you. I find small accountants generally are not geared up for this type of business as they tend to handle trading companies. Also making tax digital which is due to come in soon may mean additional expenses of record keeping and 4 submissions a year but this keeps changing. One area that is good is that there is effectively no corporation tax on dividends, not so useful for UK companies but saves money on foreign companies and unit trusts. The question is it worth it? If you have the time and can do the accounts yourself there are some advantages but I would say not as the costs (if using an accountant) and the hassle outweigh the benefits. I only do this as I have some companies with money in them that would be very expensive from the tax side to shut them down until I have drained them of most of the funds. thanks. i really appreciate your time to write this reply. it is also written in simple english, where a non-financial and non-accountancy person like myself can understand.
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Post by elephantrosie on Aug 23, 2017 10:44:42 GMT
this have been pointed out by a few people, but i did not pick up earlier until i have read alender's reply. am i allowed to use a ltd company in other type of business to invest in p2p?
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 23, 2017 10:54:37 GMT
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 23, 2017 11:15:30 GMT
this have been pointed out by a few people, but i did not pick up earlier until i have read alender's reply. am i allowed to use a ltd company in other type of business to invest in p2p? I must first state I am not an accountant and all posts are my own opinion based on experience of running companies and investing the funds for those companies. Yes you can invest in P2P. If your trading income is above 50% it will stay as a trading company but if your investment income is above 50% it becomes an investment company.
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Post by nesako on Aug 24, 2017 8:30:11 GMT
I have recently opened my own business (shifting to the "bright side" of the IT contracting) and by reading these topics one bit is made to sound like an easy and sensible thing: i.e. put your family members on, distribute income across them, massive Tax savings to be had. However, it is NOT that simple, upon investigation, you would be caught by S660 Section and pay hefty fines to HMRC. There are loads on articles on the forums covering numerous cases discussing section S660:
This whole thing is really complex, in general you can put your family members on, but be prepared to prove they are indeed contributing to your company's income to justify being paid and also if they get paid, you should pay them a "sensible" proportion of the income to not make this look like an intentional Tax dodging.
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Post by elephantrosie on Aug 26, 2017 11:05:04 GMT
this have been pointed out by a few people, but i did not pick up earlier until i have read alender's reply. am i allowed to use a ltd company in other type of business to invest in p2p? I must first state I am not an accountant and all posts are my own opinion based on experience of running companies and investing the funds for those companies. Yes you can invest in P2P. If your trading income is above 50% it will stay as a trading company but if your investment income is above 50% it becomes an investment company. sorry 50% of what?
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Post by elephantrosie on Aug 26, 2017 11:07:00 GMT
could you guys please recommend your accountants to me? having spoken to my accountant again, it seemed like he had no idea what p2p is. I am apprehensive to let him to my accounts as I will be responsible for the errors legally speaking.
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Post by elephantrosie on Aug 28, 2017 8:37:14 GMT
please private message me your accountant details. i am looking to get advice.
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