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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 13:37:41 GMT
ped - These guys don't hold onto the mined coins, they sell all coins at the end of the day davidspindle - The fact that the energy is generated from the removal of tyres from the ecosystem (a big issue: ecogreenequipment.com/how-do-old-discarded-tires-affect-the-environment/) is a big plus @bobo - It burns electricity generated from getting rid of tyres, "The interesting part is that all of our energy is created from waste. Our main product comes from used tyres! We use a pretty nifty process called pyrolysis to break down waste into an oil. We then use a clever mix of technologies to refine this oil into fuel feedstocks. Our fuel is then used in a mixture of generators or turbines to create electricity... The really great thing is that we do all this with really low emissions - in fact hardly any." ladywhitenap - the proposal does not assume holding of crypto, it assumes that all crypto is sold at the end of the day and not held. The assumed price for the sake of the assumptions bitcoin $3900. We take your point on the phrase and we will remove that. We will also add in a mitigant because it is the cost of power that is is the downside protection and the antidote to volatility - i.e because they are generating power for an extremely low cost, the company could reduce the power costs to well below what other miners are paying (as the director owns the powerplant and is being paid to take in tyres). As miners leave the space, the difficulty of mining coins reduces (the hashrate) so more coins can be mined. We need to make it clearer, thanks for the feedback. Lastly, we appreciate the passions, and it's important that debate is there. But something like crypto mining can create a very marmite situation. We have said this before; if you have questions, those are great and welcome by us and the borrowers and I would imagine, the rest of the community, but opinions are something we can't really answer as it could be seen as advice and probably should be kept to yourself unless you can add informed balance or informed value to those opinions. My team put lots of work into potential loans. We have been speaking with the business for some time, management are known tech industry professionals and investors (including one who is on the same advisory board as a founder of Apple). Like we say, questions = awesome but dismissing people's business as 'socially and morally worth nothing' and 'low quality offering' on public forums, will just drive potential borrowers away from p2p and really don't encourage us to interact either, if we are honest, as it adds the sum total of zero to the debate without informed balance. Thanks ABL, that they can turn carbon based material into another carbon based material is wonderful. But then they do something stupid with it, they mine crypto, which is socially worthless and often practically worthless. If they used the electricity generated from the tyres to sell electricity I would be interested in investing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 13:40:14 GMT
Nearly all the air we breath has been inside a criminal but we don't stop breathing......
The point is that if we have to be so stupid as to do things that are actually against the Paris agreement and don't make anything of a social value what is the point? "make me poorer and destroy the earth why don't you"
Without any emissions....... CxHx + O2-> H20 + CO2 oh yes CO2 is an emission, who forgot and BTW what is the main greenhouse gas? (See also global warming 101) :-)
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Post by ladywhitenap on Mar 7, 2019 13:51:46 GMT
The security is a chattels mortgage over the computers/hardware which the proposal state is presumed to end up at zero value after two years, the duration of the loan. So to me, the LTV may well start at 70% but surely rises to infinite towards the end of the loan. Should this type of devaluing asset is more suited to an amortizing loan/payback model? Or have I misunderstood? LW ablrate Please can you respond on the profile of the LTV over the duration of this loan And:- Why an amortising loan model was not used to mitigate this? Thank you LW
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Post by ablrate on Mar 7, 2019 13:53:48 GMT
Nearly all the air we breath has been inside a criminal but we don't stop breathing......
The point is that if we have to be so stupid as to do things that are actually against the Paris agreement and don't make anything of a social value what is the point? "make me poorer and destroy the earth why don't you"
Without any emissions....... CxHx + O2-> H20 + CO2 oh yes CO2 is an emission, who forgot and BTW what is the main greenhouse gas? (See also global warming 101) :-)
We will have to agree to disagree I happen to think the move towards decentralisation, the flattening of the financial ecosystem and digital currency will bring huge social benefits, including environmental.
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Mar 7, 2019 13:57:25 GMT
Worse, crypto currencies do have an inherent value as an anonymous means of tranferring large amounts of money - a high proportion (44% according to this article) of bitcoin, etc transactions are involved in drug trades and much worse.
Personally I have plenty of other things to invest in without indirectly supporting that type of industry.
We take your point, and no one wants to fund such things and I am not looking for a fight here - your point, as I say is well taken, ... but here is a classic example of how you could add balance to the argument - a high proportion (50% according to this article quoting the Bank of England) of bank notes just in the UK, are involved in drug trades and much worse. We are all essentially 'mining' these notes by working and investing, but we don't stop working or investing because criminals use cash.
I like that argument! I guess from my own perspective though I regularly use cash in many situations where other means of payment aren't available like at the barbers or paying the window cleaner. Anywhere crypto currencies could be used however, you could instead use a credit/debit card or paypal, etc. The only reasons I would want to use crypto in that situation would be if I was seeking anonymity due to either paranoia or doing something illegal.
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Post by Proptechfish on Mar 7, 2019 14:05:19 GMT
I got to add something, my original thought before I went off on a tangent. It's a little philosophical.
The irony is not lost on me that Crypto and P2P are born from the same mother 'Fintech', are roughly the same age and are basically two answers to the same question. How do we modernise free market capitalism for the 21st century ? A system that is based on the fundamental tenets of 'Adam Smith's Wealth Of Nations' a book that is nearly 250 years old and is rapidly losing relevance in the 21st century. Yet both camps seem diametrically opposed.
Where have I heard that story before ?
Now back to the loan discussion before I get harangued for going too far off piste.
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macq
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Post by macq on Mar 7, 2019 14:21:50 GMT
Nearly all the air we breath has been inside a criminal but we don't stop breathing......
The point is that if we have to be so stupid as to do things that are actually against the Paris agreement and don't make anything of a social value what is the point? "make me poorer and destroy the earth why don't you"
Without any emissions....... CxHx + O2-> H20 + CO2 oh yes CO2 is an emission, who forgot and BTW what is the main greenhouse gas? (See also global warming 101) :-)
We will have to agree to disagree I happen to think the move towards decentralisation, the flattening of the financial ecosystem and digital currency will bring huge social benefits, including environmental. i am One of the old 55 year old's mentioned in other post's but do get the idea of block chain up to a point,but with the mining of coins how do you know what your mining today and using energy for will be in use next week?More then Once the term decentralisation has been used but surely without somebody taking control of digital currency you will just have hundreds of coins/tokens fighting for space(and a lot of the time old money) with wild swings in value which is of no use to anybody when One day it buys a car and the next a cheese roll (and yes i know you can have flat money hit by inflation like Zimbabwe etc) At the moment you are mining a commodity which can be swapped for money with like minded people the same as stamps,coins & panini stickers with the value determined by demand hence the promoting by people involved as no trades = no profit as there is only money to be made while there is profit/loss like shares.Until there is a form of regulation you are probably a long way from that social benefit mentioned
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seb8072
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Post by seb8072 on Mar 7, 2019 14:42:03 GMT
The security is a chattels mortgage over the computers/hardware which the proposal state is presumed to end up at zero value after two years, the duration of the loan. So to me, the LTV may well start at 70% but surely rises to infinite towards the end of the loan. Should this type of devaluing asset is more suited to an amortizing loan/payback model? Or have I misunderstood? LW ablrate Please can you respond on the profile of the LTV over the duration of this loan And:- Why an amortising loan model was not used to mitigate this? Thank you LW ablrate I too would be grateful if you would respond to ladywhitenap's very valid questions.
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Post by ablrate on Mar 7, 2019 14:44:42 GMT
We take your point, and no one wants to fund such things and I am not looking for a fight here - your point, as I say is well taken, ... but here is a classic example of how you could add balance to the argument - a high proportion (50% according to this article quoting the Bank of England) of bank notes just in the UK, are involved in drug trades and much worse. We are all essentially 'mining' these notes by working and investing, but we don't stop working or investing because criminals use cash.
I like that argument! I guess from my own perspective though I regularly use cash in many situations where other means of payment aren't available like at the barbers or paying the window cleaner. Anywhere crypto currencies could be used however, you could instead use a credit/debit card or paypal, etc. The only reasons I would want to use crypto in that situation would be if I was seeking anonymity due to either paranoia or doing something illegal.
.. and that is the problem, presently, for any crypto... it is adoption. When I went to Singapore at the end of the year, this restaurant took crypto. When its not so complicated and tech to own it and pay with it people will see that its not such a big deal... everything is a bit too techy right now for mass adoption
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macq
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Post by macq on Mar 7, 2019 14:48:22 GMT
not for me - not due to the business or what it does but the fact that i can't really get a feeling on the LTV and strength of security to make my mind up
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Post by ablrate on Mar 7, 2019 14:50:20 GMT
ablrate Please can you respond on the profile of the LTV over the duration of this loan And:- Why an amortising loan model was not used to mitigate this? Thank you LW ablrate I too would be grateful if you would respond to ladywhitenap's very valid questions.
When we put the loan together initially, we looked at the amortisation of the loan against the value of the processing units. The PG that we have is on the back on an 8 figure net asset statement, so we are comfortable... However, we are going to review this with the borrower and see if we can put amortisation, in some form, back on the table. Thanks for your feedback, we will let you know.
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macq
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Post by macq on Mar 7, 2019 14:53:52 GMT
I like that argument! I guess from my own perspective though I regularly use cash in many situations where other means of payment aren't available like at the barbers or paying the window cleaner. Anywhere crypto currencies could be used however, you could instead use a credit/debit card or paypal, etc. The only reasons I would want to use crypto in that situation would be if I was seeking anonymity due to either paranoia or doing something illegal.
.. and that is the problem, presently, for any crypto... it is adoption. When I went to Singapore at the end of the year, this restaurant took crypto. When its not so complicated and tech to own it and pay with it people will see that its not such a big deal... everything is a bit too techy right now for mass adoption but surely to be used in a mass market sense all coins would have to have the same value which then makes it the some as old money but digital.But once its at a flat rate does the profit not go for the people trading/ramping/mining & promoting on Facebook at the moment?
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boundah
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Post by boundah on Mar 7, 2019 15:09:28 GMT
When we put the loan together initially, we looked at the amortisation of the loan against the value of the processing units. The PG that we have is on the back on an 8 figure net asset statement, so we are comfortable... However, we are going to review this with the borrower and see if we can put amortisation, in some form, back on the table. Thanks for your feedback, we will let you know. I'm no expert on the crypto side of things, but would be willing to accept Ablrate's analysis that the business is viable. What's stopping me investing is the lack of solid security. A bunch of computers depreciates quickly, down to zero well before the end of the loan. PGs are worth only what's left after the guarantor pays off other loans he's also guaranteed, shifts assets out of arm's reach and/or declares himself bankrupt. Two things might entice me back in: a solid security, eg first charge over the borrower's house; plus making the loan amortising. Otherwise it's bargepole terrain for me.
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Post by ablrate on Mar 7, 2019 15:16:03 GMT
.. and that is the problem, presently, for any crypto... it is adoption. When I went to Singapore at the end of the year, this restaurant took crypto. When its not so complicated and tech to own it and pay with it people will see that its not such a big deal... everything is a bit too techy right now for mass adoption but surely to be used in a mass market sense all coins would have to have the same value which then makes it the some as old money but digital.But once its at a flat rate does the profit not go for the people trading/ramping/mining & promoting on Facebook at the moment? I don't want to get into the future too much! It is, however, and area I am very interested in and have been learning about for a few years. The coins have to be stable, that is for sure... and yes it the same as old money in reality, but no one organisation controls it (that is why those coins that are 'owned' probably won't go anywhere). When something is decentralised it can't be printed out of existence (zim dollar) etc..
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p2pmark
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Post by p2pmark on Mar 7, 2019 15:21:20 GMT
Thank you very much ablrate for listening to my concerns and removing the offending text. I think the profit / loss table is really a cashflow table? The loan is treated as a positive profit, the IT investment as a loss, and there's no allowance for depreciation. For something like this, a cashflow forecast could well be more useful for lenders, but it should be labelled appropriately. I’m trying to avoid any further comments on crypto in this thread because I don't see the point (it seems to be a bit like arguing about religion), but some of these comments do make it difficult…..
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