iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Dec 15, 2019 0:32:41 GMT
I would expect Spain to veto any EU application by a break away region. Break away region? They've got their own football team for goodness sake. Its a country ! Contextual quagmire but technically correct, I think.
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Dec 15, 2019 10:23:04 GMT
It’s pretty pathetic. My Facebook page is full of people who seem to think every Tory voter is a racist, homophobic, NHS hating , food bank lover. the same remainers who don't understand the implications of the EU's TTIP deal that would put the NHS up for grabs, and are happy to carry banners saying "labour, for the many not the Jew", and think Jewdas is an appropriate name for an organisation. I read another of the pathetic stories yesterday about poor mother being left with £64 for Christmas because her wages were paid twice in an assessment period so she only got £64 not her normal £650. if your wages are monthly as is assessment for tax credit's if you lose one month you gain another, ok it's unfortunate but it's a fact of life. it's an issue for those who work, yet get benefit's 4 weekly surely the system could pay those people monthly, fortnightly or 4 weekly depending on pay cycles. Interestingly when I was on benefits they refused to put me on UC because I own my house they said on UC id get more than I was entitled to, so the twonks at DWP are fiddling with the system.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 15, 2019 10:46:20 GMT
I don't think the system could handle the UK leaving the EU at the same time as Scotland leaving the UK, but staying in the EU. And if the border in Ireland is a problem a border between England and Scotland would be an even bigger headache. Would the EU even allow Scotland to inherit the UK membership (now ending) to get Scotland into the EU as a separate country, or would they have to apply from scratch?I don't know but I can't imagine they'd face any difficulty in becoming a member if they wanted to. They would first need to prove that they met with the rules of the club. For example:
1) budget deficit must not exceed 3% of gross domestic product (GDP);
2) public debt (government debt & that of public agencies) must not exceed 60% of GDP
Scotland has no track record of these matters, so how long would it take to convince the EU that they were complying?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 15, 2019 11:04:17 GMT
for me let them go but We keep the pound they have to have a scots currency or euros. Hard Border that they pay for, they want to leave let them pay as soon as they vote leave, the Barnnet formula is revised so scots funding is the same as England ( no extras ) we provide no defence force in other words we play hardball There's a fundemental difference between Brexit and Scottish Independence.
The UK had a legal right to leave the EU, Scotland can only go it alone if Boris agrees. So That puts Scotland in a weak position. I assume the minimum the rest of the UK would want is that Scotland pays the total cost of seperation (for example the cost of relocating the nuclear submarine base from Faslane to somewhere south of the border).
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 15, 2019 11:07:16 GMT
for me let them go but We keep the pound they have to have a scots currency or euros. Hard Border that they pay for, they want to leave let them pay as soon as they vote leave, the Barnnet formula is revised so scots funding is the same as England ( no extras ) we provide no defence force in other words we play hardball There's a fundemental difference between Brexit and Scottish Independence.
The UK had a legal right to leave the EU, Scotland can only go it alone if Boris agrees. So That puts Scotland in a weak position. I assume the minimum the rest of the UK would want is that Scotland pays the total cost of seperation (for example the cost of relocating the nuclear submarine base from Faslane to somewhere south of the border). I would have thought that the border issues will be a problem as well. Am I the only one who thinks the union is on the verge of total break up and is being out of the EU real that important above the union.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Dec 15, 2019 11:17:50 GMT
I don't know but I can't imagine they'd face any difficulty in becoming a member if they wanted to. There's an EU report on The Impact of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union on Scotland, Wales and Gibraltar from 2017 that looks at various scenarios including Scotland becoming independent. Some interesting points: "Until the 1980s the Scottish National Party looked unfavourably on Europe and in the 1975 referendum favoured leaving. In the mid-1980s the SNP changed direction and joined those other autonomist and secessionist parties that seek Europe as an important external support system, underpinning their own aspirations." "Apart from the refusal of the UK Government to agree, there are other obstacles to a successful independence referendum. The opinion polls show support for independence more or less unchanged at a little under half the electorate. There has not been a post-Brexit boost. Indeed, most of the electorate have long failed to make the link between Europe and independence that the SNP make." "If a referendum vote resulted in Scotland leaving the UK, it might stay in the EU but there would be a hard economic border between it and the remaining UK, unless the UK were to remain within the Single Market [...] As noted above, Scotland is four times more dependent on UK trade than on EU trade. So the harder the form of Brexit, the more difficult it becomes for Scotland." "There seems no basis in EU law for the assertion that membership would be impossible, as Scotland meets the criteria and not since de Gaulle’s veto on UK membership in the 1960s has a democratic country respecting the rule of law been refused admission. [...] No member state suggested that it would veto Scotland’s membership and none has done so since. The crucial point is that if Scotland were to become independent as a result of an agreement with the United Kingdom, it would be recognized by the UK and there is no reason for any other government to refuse recognition or EU membership." "Yet making the transition from being part of the UK to being an independent state would take time. It has been suggested that, in the meantime, Scotland could become part of EFTA and the European Economic Area (EEA), so maintaining membership of the Single Market."
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 15, 2019 11:39:53 GMT
In ten years time, I'm pretty sure Scotland and Northern Ireland will not be in the United Kingdom. THe stripping back to England and Wales is the ultimate end of the decline of Britain as a first rate power. Oh well, that's history. In order to understand the near future though, chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-brexit-dystopia-bequeathed-by-this.html?m=1If you're thinking "I'm a Leaver so I won't read this", no, you should. You won the battle, face the consequences.
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 15, 2019 11:44:17 GMT
thx mrk , Another thing that is surely as important as this involves the break up of the uk, then surely all in the union should have a voice not just Scotland. Although I'm not sure that will be unfavourable to Scotland. With the break from the EU and if scotland gets their break then I wonder how long it will be before the french start wading in. Hopefully we have learnt from 1000 years of history but I do wonder with scotland gone will the queen still be a resident in scotland. ??
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 15, 2019 11:46:40 GMT
In ten years time, I'm pretty sure Scotland and Northern Ireland will not be in the United Kingdom. THe stripping back to England and Wales is the ultimate end of the decline of Britain as a first rate power. Oh well, that's history. In order to understand the near future though, chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-brexit-dystopia-bequeathed-by-this.html?m=1If you're thinking "I'm a Leaver so I won't read this", no, you should. You won the battle, face the consequences. "We're doomed Mr Mainwaring, doomed" Very interesting read from Chris Grey, glad it never occured to me to vote Leave or for Boris, but then in my position I probably should be voting in Blue economics rather than Red ones but that a whole different story!
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Dec 15, 2019 13:44:17 GMT
With the break from the EU and if scotland gets their break then I wonder how long it will be before the french start wading in. Hopefully we have learnt from 1000 years of history but I do wonder with scotland gone will the queen still be a resident in scotland. The whitepaper published before the 2014 referendum says an independent Scotland "would retain the British monarch as Head of State in a personal union".
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 15, 2019 13:53:12 GMT
One of the complaints from remainers was that people didn't know what they were voting for in the original Brexit referendum.
I assume the same principle applies to Scottish independence. The SNP should see what deal they can get from the government and then put that to a vote.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Dec 15, 2019 14:32:57 GMT
One of the complaints from remainers was that people didn't know what they were voting for in the original Brexit referendum.
I assume the same principle applies to Scottish independence. The SNP should see what deal they can get from the government and then put that to a vote.
They did publish a 650-page white paper, which is about 650 page longer than any Brexit plan published before the 2016 referendum. Granted, it's just a vision and lots things would need to be negotiated. But if only we had some sort of Brexit plan ready in 2016, saying e.g. if the UK wanted to remain in a custom union or not, perhaps parliament would not have spent 3 and half years arguing about what Brexit actually means.
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 15, 2019 14:44:14 GMT
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Dec 15, 2019 15:17:34 GMT
Another thing that is surely as important as this involves the break up of the uk, then surely all in the union should have a voice not just Scotland. That's like saying Kosovo should not have become independent unless the majority of people in Serbia agreed. There is a principle of self-determination in international law. (I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, just to be clear. There are valid arguments against independence, but the above is not one of them. )
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 15, 2019 15:39:32 GMT
Another thing that is surely as important as this involves the break up of the uk, then surely all in the union should have a voice not just Scotland. That's like saying Kosovo should not have become independent unless the majority of people in Serbia agreed. There is a principle of self-determination in international law. (I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, just to be clear. There are valid arguments against independence, but the above is not one of them. ) I take your point although not sure its quite the same thing. As long as it does not affect my wellbeing in the south - I think it will massively if it were to happen - but quite honestly where I sit here in rainy wiltshire I don't have much power to change the status quo anyway.
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