|
Post by stevebarryifa on Sept 26, 2017 14:33:16 GMT
Hi all I'm an IFA, and am considering advising my clients on P2P. Therefore, I'm currently in the process of learning more about P2P lending, and am keen to hear war stories from people who have actually lost money in the process of investing. In particular: - How much money did you lose?
- What happened?
- Which Lender did you invest with?
- Was the provision fund useful? ie. would you have lost more if the lender did not have a provision fund?
Would also be keen to hear from people who lost money, and then were able to reclaim some of that back via debt collectors or collection agencies.
Is this a somewhat common occurrence or relatively rare? In your opinion, what is the chance that you will get less of the money back that you initially invested with a lender?
Thanks very much guys, keen to read your replies
|
|
hazellend
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,363
Likes: 2,180
|
Post by hazellend on Sept 26, 2017 14:46:31 GMT
No offence but if you are asking these questions you should not be advising this to your clients.
|
|
|
Post by d_saver on Sept 26, 2017 14:46:49 GMT
Pretty sure you'll get a really wide range of answers. But, bear in mind, P2P as a retail investment has hugely grown in popularity recently as as such, many of the troubles have not even come to light. Some are starting to now. Many of the troubled investments are not yet to term, or may be 'rolled' and simply pushed further down the road. Unless you get someone who has been fully invested for at least a couple years and gone through a few investment and repayment cycles, I would not consider the answers that they provide that illuminating. There is a massive quality range in terms of loans across the providers (and sometimes even the same providers). Losses in p2p are I think inevitable. It's a game of averages.
For completely hands off and diversified investments, it may well be more prudent to look at the aggregators such as Assetz, Bond Mason, etc. I can't really see 'unsophisticated' investors making the sort of investments that are discussed on these boards safely (in general). If I were looking to suggest someone get involved in P2p without them wanting to directly perform due diligence and management of their investments, that's likely where I'd push them.
|
|
|
Post by stevebarryifa on Sept 26, 2017 14:56:21 GMT
No offence but if you are asking these questions you should not be advising this to your clients.
Everybody starts somewhere, figured this would be a good place!
|
|
|
Post by stevebarryifa on Sept 26, 2017 15:00:02 GMT
Pretty sure you'll get a really wide range of answers. But, bear in mind, P2P as a retail investment has hugely grown in popularity recently as as such, many of the troubles have not even come to light. Some are starting to now. Many of the troubled investments are not yet to term, or may be 'rolled' and simply pushed further down the road. Unless you get someone who has been fully invested for at least a couple years and gone through a few investment and repayment cycles, I would not consider the answers that they provide that illuminating. There is a massive quality range in terms of loans across the providers (and sometimes even the same providers). Losses in p2p are I think inevitable. It's a game of averages. For completely hands off and diversified investments, it may well be more prudent to look at the aggregators such as Assetz, Bond Mason, etc. I can't really see 'unsophisticated' investors making the sort of investments that are discussed on these boards safely (in general). If I were looking to suggest someone get involved in P2p without them wanting to directly perform due diligence and management of their investments, that's likely where I'd push them. Really interesting, thanks
|
|
bg
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 1,929
|
Post by bg on Sept 26, 2017 15:05:26 GMT
No offence but if you are asking these questions you should not be advising this to your clients.
Agreed. You should really not consider advising your clients to invest until you have invested yourself for a period. Some platforms may claim no one has ever lost any money but its not true and you won't really appreciate why until you have been there yourself.
|
|
seeingred
Member of DD Central
Posts: 470
Likes: 664
|
Post by seeingred on Sept 26, 2017 15:05:43 GMT
We don't charge a fee for an initial consultation.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on Sept 26, 2017 15:15:31 GMT
It's quite difficult to say, and also quite difficult to discuss - where recovery actions are still taking place it would be unwise for anybody to go into too much detail about their "war stories". In the ~2.5 years I've been doing it:-
* Overall I have not lost anything (yet?). * On no single platform have my losses outweighed my earnings (yet?). * Assuming zero recoveries I have made about 8% a year (this is a very rough and ready calculation). * Currently I have ~ 3.7% of my portfolio in default. * I currently estimate (again, very rough and ready) that I will see recoveries of ~75% of my current default portfolio (I suspect this is high compared to the general population, but I think it reasonable given the specifics of the defaults in question). * I assign zero value to provision funds (so there could be some uplift there). * Platform comparisons here are dificult because the models they employ are so different, for instance compare and contrast the likes of Zopa, FC, Lendy and AC.
One final comment on your "Would also be keen to hear from people who lost money, and then were able to reclaim some of that back via debt collectors or collection agencies" question. Recovery responsibilities lie squarely with the platforms. Individuals taking action via debt collectors / recovery agencies would at best be disruptive and at worst wreck recovery efforts for everybody.
|
|
pikestaff
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,187
Likes: 1,546
|
Post by pikestaff on Sept 26, 2017 15:23:41 GMT
Steve Pretty well all of us who have been around for a while will have had losses on individual loans (unless we only do PF backed lending). Net losses on individual platfoms, or on p2p as a whole, would be less common but not unheard of. Reclaiming via debt collectors or collection agencies is not something that lenders can do themselves. The platforms have their own collection processes (for better or worse ) and their T&Cs (or those that I have read) preclude borrowers taking any separate action either individually or collectively. I don't think I've had a single bad loan where the involvement of debt collectors or agencies in the collection of the loan by the platform has been visible to me. That's possibly because my unprotected lending is all p2b. However, I am in a bad "lend to lend" loan where the administrator of the borrower has used debt collectors or agencies to collect its debts, with limited success - enough to pay for the administration but very little left for lenders. If you are thinking about risks for your clients, the other key risk you need to think about is liquidity. Where loans go bad the collection process may take many years. Additionally, platforms generally restrict the trading of loans that are (or have recently been) not fully performing, or have been rescheduled. The extent of such restrictions varies greatly between platforms. The main platforms that I use are AC and TC: On AC, loans are usually suspended from trading for only a short period while information is published to lenders (including prospective lenders). Once the suspension is lifted lenders can generally get out although they may have to offer a discount. (The discounts needed to get a loan away are surprisingly small; lenders are not good IMO at pricing risk.) On TC, loans can be suspended for a very long time if not indefinitely. This is because TC have a policy of only providing information about loan "events" to the lenders in the loan. Prospective buyers do not have the information and so, for their protection, the loans are suspended. This does not particularly bother me, because I don't need the liquidity. But for some it would be a killer.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 15:31:58 GMT
I believe I've lost money on a year taken by itself on Funding Circle. No other portal has lost me money, lesson learnt. Over the 4 years with FC I have made money. With FC it is very hard to find out what is going on and it just got a whole lot worse. Provision fund?? My own view is that recommending P2P to a hands off lender is very difficult. P2P makes so very little money and all the capital is at risk. You need to be involved with the action all the time.
I have another 7 portals in my portfolio and I make about 10% a year but not when I count my time at minimum wage.
|
|
stub8535
Member of DD Central
personal opinions only. Not qualified to advise on investment products.
Posts: 1,447
Likes: 945
|
Post by stub8535 on Sept 26, 2017 15:37:26 GMT
Hi all I'm an IFA, and am considering advising my clients on P2P. Therefore, I'm currently in the process of learning more about P2P lending, and am keen to hear war stories from people who have actually lost money in the process of investing. In particular: - How much money did you lose?
- What happened?
- Which Lender did you invest with?
- Was the provision fund useful? ie. would you have lost more if the lender did not have a provision fund?
Would also be keen to hear from people who lost money, and then were able to reclaim some of that back via debt collectors or collection agencies.
Is this a somewhat common occurrence or relatively rare? In your opinion, what is the chance that you will get less of the money back that you initially invested with a lender?
Thanks very much guys, keen to read your replies Plenty of material about losses on the forum. Have a read Steve. That way you would get a more balanced view. Beware though as some posters are not all they seem.
|
|
littonowl
Member of DD Central
Posts: 398
Likes: 355
|
Post by littonowl on Sept 26, 2017 15:45:44 GMT
Pretty sure you'll get a really wide range of answers. But, bear in mind, P2P as a retail investment has hugely grown in popularity recently as as such, many of the troubles have not even come to light. Some are starting to now. Many of the troubled investments are not yet to term, or may be 'rolled' and simply pushed further down the road. Unless you get someone who has been fully invested for at least a couple years and gone through a few investment and repayment cycles, I would not consider the answers that they provide that illuminating. There is a massive quality range in terms of loans across the providers (and sometimes even the same providers). Losses in p2p are I think inevitable. It's a game of averages. For completely hands off and diversified investments, it may well be more prudent to look at the aggregators such as Assetz, Bond Mason, etc. I can't really see 'unsophisticated' investors making the sort of investments that are discussed on these boards safely (in general). If I were looking to suggest someone get involved in P2p without them wanting to directly perform due diligence and management of their investments, that's likely where I'd push them. In addition to BondMason & Assetz, I'd check out Octopus Choice, who I believe set up initially solely to deal with IFA's though they now allow retail investors too: octopuschoice.com/adviser/welcome
|
|
|
Post by d_saver on Sept 26, 2017 15:48:18 GMT
Pretty sure you'll get a really wide range of answers. But, bear in mind, P2P as a retail investment has hugely grown in popularity recently as as such, many of the troubles have not even come to light. Some are starting to now. Many of the troubled investments are not yet to term, or may be 'rolled' and simply pushed further down the road. Unless you get someone who has been fully invested for at least a couple years and gone through a few investment and repayment cycles, I would not consider the answers that they provide that illuminating. There is a massive quality range in terms of loans across the providers (and sometimes even the same providers). Losses in p2p are I think inevitable. It's a game of averages. For completely hands off and diversified investments, it may well be more prudent to look at the aggregators such as Assetz, Bond Mason, etc. I can't really see 'unsophisticated' investors making the sort of investments that are discussed on these boards safely (in general). If I were looking to suggest someone get involved in P2p without them wanting to directly perform due diligence and management of their investments, that's likely where I'd push them. In addition to BondMason & Assetz, I'd check out Octopus Choice, who I believe set up initially solely to deal with IFA's though they now allow retail investors too: octopuschoice.com/adviser/welcome+1 on that. I've been invested there for a while and it's another send money and forget platform that seems to do what is says on the label and from what I have seen, is reasonably robust in its investments.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 789
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 26, 2017 16:13:00 GMT
My view on p2p is that it makes economic sense lending without the overheads and regulation of the banking sector. On the downside alot of the loans are high risk and I would not want to have too much exposure to the sector when the sht hits the fan. I am also pretty sure there is a ponzi element to p2p with new money being used to cover over losses on some platforms - I have no evidence of this it is just my opinion.
When I got into p2p I was pretty sure the sector was growing and we were a long way off from the next downturn. I am not so sure of either of these now.
|
|
stevio
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,065
Likes: 894
|
Post by stevio on Sept 26, 2017 17:10:33 GMT
There was a reporter around here asking similar questions, now a relatively new member doing the same, but (now?) an IFA....hmm...strange your not asking about potential profits, only losses, wonder why that might be?
|
|