agent69
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Post by agent69 on Apr 10, 2019 18:03:40 GMT
they've played with a completely straight bat. You mean apart from the lies and the blackmail?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 10, 2019 18:12:42 GMT
they've played with a completely straight bat. You mean apart from the lies and the blackmail? I'm not aware of any lies*, but would be happy to review any supporting evidence you have for such. IMHO neither informing us of the inevitable consequences of our actions nor refusing to appease our histrionics and misplaced sense of national superiority count as "blackmail". * The lies told by some of the popular press over the last two or three decades are far, far more apparent, as are the reprehensible lies made by pro-leave leading politicians in the run up to the referendum.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Apr 10, 2019 20:25:24 GMT
You mean apart from the lies and the blackmail? I'm not aware of any lies*, but would be happy to review any supporting evidence you have for such. IMHO neither informing us of the inevitable consequences of our actions nor refusing to appease our histrionics and misplaced sense of national superiority count as "blackmail". * The lies told by some of the popular press over the last two or three decades are far, far more apparent, as are the reprehensible lies made by pro-leave leading politicians in the run up to the referendum.
- The EU said we won't grant an extension past 29th March unless the UK has a clear plan for the way forward ....... Lie
- The EU said we won't talk to you about a trade deal unless you agree to pay us a load of cash first ..... blackmail
And if you're looking for lies, how about George Osborne saying if we vote leave we will need am emergency budget, or the other remainers who said a leave vote would see the stockmarket plumet and unemployment rocket.
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Apr 10, 2019 20:46:36 GMT
.... We've just got to the point that pro remain MPs have weaked the ability to negotiate a sensible deal so much that no deal is actually the only way to leave. Otherwise we effectively remain or split up the UK with May's deal. This is the EU plan all along, delay until they can reverse the referendum result. If France can force our own MPs to honour the referendum then, being a pragmatist, I'm all for that. They won't though.
Sorry, but this really is nonsensical. The deal (WA) + political statement that May achieved is a pretty strong and hard brexit, including no customs union. It makes very little room for concerns of Remainer MPs. No CU and no customs checks between NI and rest of UK are not just May's 'red lines', they are red lines of the hard leave side. Namely ERG and DUP. But those red lines have consequences. Which have come in the form of the "backstop". The entirety of the DUP and the majority of the ERG have subsequently voted against the deal because of the very same backstop which is a natural consequence of the contradictory demands.
What would have have - the remoaners vote for May's pretty hard brexit in order to provide the counter weight for the hard brexiteers who nonetheless can't vote for it because of the fear of the backstop ?
Puzzled.
Why is this nonsensical? We definitely aren't seeing eye to eye on the withdrawal agreement. It really is an awful deal for the UK
-We pay more than double the "membership fee" to effectively remain for 21 months
-Obey all the rules including those without any influence on making them (including ones that could be specifially designed to punish the UK with no veto to stop them) -At the end we can only leave if the EU gives us permission otherwise we end up having different rules for NI and GB effectively splitting up the UK -There is no actual guarantee of a free trade deal, just an "intent" one will be negotiated. If the WA goes through I fully expect that it will be dragged out and extended for years (they have a back date of 31st december 20xx written into it so we'll have to leave some time this century at least!). The uncertainty is much more damaging for business investment decisions than either just being fully in or fully out.
The WA (ostensibly referred to as May's deal but really the EU's deal) is not leave. It is remain but on worse terms.
The fact that MPs consistently said they wouldn't accept no deal means the EU could dream up the worst deal possible for the UK allow May to say it's my way, no deal or extend and pretend which is what's happening now.
If we left with no deal and the EU wanted to slap tariffs on our exports from next week and we countered with 20% on cars and French wine I suspect BMW, Volkswagon, Audi, etc would have enough political clout to encourage a speedy free trade deal.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 10, 2019 21:46:46 GMT
We definitely aren't seeing eye to eye on the withdrawal agreement. It really is an awful deal for the UK I'm happy to see eye-to-eye with you on that. It's a terrible deal. But that's what happens when you give people like David Davis and Dominic Raab the job of negotiating the "easiest deal in the world". Can I just remind you of where we were last summer, two years after the referendum and Davis' appointment as Brexit Sec? www.ft.com/content/9e3aacf0-7b9c-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d...and six months before that... infacts.org/david-davis-either-woefully-unprepared-dishonest/As for his replacement... Arch leavers, both, so you can hardly blame remainers for trying to derail negotiations... The backstop is there just as much to protect Ireland from being held ransom to the whim of UK politicians. Why is it a bad thing to have to mutually agree to end it? And let's not forget there already are many "different rules" between NI and GB, just as Scotland has a completely different legal system to England & Wales. Negotiations are a two-way thing. May and the EU agreed that was the best compromise, within the red lines that May unilaterally imposed. As for "not leave". Outside the SM, outside the CU (except for NI). Hardly "remain"...
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 10, 2019 21:54:08 GMT
If we left with no deal and the EU wanted to slap tariffs on our exports from next week and we countered with 20% on cars and French wine I suspect BMW, Volkswagon, Audi, etc would have enough political clout to encourage a speedy free trade deal. If the UK leaves with no deal, there will be no "want to slap tariffs". We will be on default trading terms. The EU will either have to "slap" tariffs, or will have to remove them for EVERY nation without an explicit trade deal. And vice-versa. Except the UK would have to have default terms with EVERY SINGLE country in the world, as we wouldn't have one single trade deal in place with anybody. Oh, wait. Sorry. We've signed agreements to carry on a few EU deals. Nine, currently, to be accurate. The biggest are with Switzerland, Israel, Norway, and the Caribbean - about 11% of trade in total. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Apr 10, 2019 23:31:53 GMT
If we left with no deal and the EU wanted to slap tariffs on our exports from next week and we countered with 20% on cars and French wine I suspect BMW, Volkswagon, Audi, etc would have enough political clout to encourage a speedy free trade deal. If the UK leaves with no deal, there will be no "want to slap tariffs". We will be on default trading terms. The EU will either have to "slap" tariffs, or will have to remove them for EVERY nation without an explicit trade deal. And vice-versa. Except the UK would have to have default terms with EVERY SINGLE country in the world, as we wouldn't have one single trade deal in place with anybody. This is incorrect. Article 24 of the WTO rules explains (section 5) that we can immediately agree an interim relationship with the EU of mutual free trade provided we are working towards a formal free trade deal or customs union. This interim period can last up to 10 years or potentially more in special circumstances. We could, if both the EU and UK agree, have an interim period of trade maintaining the current status quo and work towards a new trade deal.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 10, 2019 23:44:30 GMT
If we left with no deal and the EU wanted to slap tariffs on our exports from next week and we countered with 20% on cars and French wine I suspect BMW, Volkswagon, Audi, etc would have enough political clout to encourage a speedy free trade deal. This is a perfect example of what, to be polite, was misrepresented by the Leave campaign. The whole idea that "BMW etc want to sell cars to the UK so the EU will come round" was, and is, nonsense. Yes, BMW etc want to sell cars to the UK. No, BMW etc do not want to sell cars to the UK at the expense of the EU and the Common Market (and no, their political leaders wouldn't let them make that bargain even if they wanted to). The EU is the UK's largest trading partner, and we're doing our best to show them the finger. Is that wise? In poker terms we, the UK, are sitting on an inside straight. For some unknown reason our politicians think the EU is sat on a pair of threes. In fact the EU is sat fat and happy on a full house. And the UK is chucking money in thinking to bully the EU the off the pot. "lol"
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on Apr 11, 2019 7:18:45 GMT
adrainc found a nice graphic of Margaret Thatcher yesterday & her vision of Britain as a central trading pillar of the EU. However, just over 30 years ago her Bruges speech raised concerns of an increasingly bureaucratic & federalist EU agenda. The very agenda that Thatcher did not want & the EU has relentlessly pursued since. Bruges planted the seeds for Brexit. When David Cameron proposed reform in 2015 the EU quite literally laughed him out of the Summit & set us on a course for Brexit. capx.co/30-years-after-bruges-margaret-thatcher-is-still-right-about-europe/
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 11, 2019 7:23:48 GMT
If the UK leaves with no deal, there will be no "want to slap tariffs". We will be on default trading terms. The EU will either have to "slap" tariffs, or will have to remove them for EVERY nation without an explicit trade deal. And vice-versa. Except the UK would have to have default terms with EVERY SINGLE country in the world, as we wouldn't have one single trade deal in place with anybody. This is incorrect. Article 24 of the WTO rules explains (section 5) that we can immediately agree an interim relationship with the EU of mutual free trade provided we are working towards a formal free trade deal or customs union. This interim period can last up to 10 years or potentially more in special circumstances. We could, if both the EU and UK agree, have an interim period of trade maintaining the current status quo and work towards a new trade deal. Yes, we could. If we agreed a withdrawal agreement - which would probably include a transition agreement on the existing deals, anyway, assuming it was outside the customs union. But if we leave with no deal, then by definition there is no agreed interim relationship - and do you really think there's going to be any political will on either side to immediately have a nice little group hug over a future trade deal? m2btj - we did Cameron's negotiations a couple of pages back.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Apr 11, 2019 7:43:21 GMT
For the mathematicians out there, can anyone tell me the next number in this sequence;
29th March, 12th April, 31st October,
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 11, 2019 8:06:45 GMT
For the mathematicians out there, can anyone tell me the next number in this sequence;
29th March, 12th April, 31st October, A week after hell freezes over? <crosses fingers>
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mosaic
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Post by mosaic on Apr 11, 2019 9:50:11 GMT
30th February?
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 11, 2019 9:58:56 GMT
13:41 on 24th October 2027
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kmac
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Post by kmac on Apr 11, 2019 10:25:32 GMT
21st June 2016
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