IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 11, 2018 10:52:39 GMT
And if people were truly interested in the public's view on the largest constitutional change since WW2, they would be actively seeking clear unambiguous consent on the negotiated deal. The public does not have the expertise to weigh up a 600 page deal - that is what Parliament is for. in which case deal is firmly rejected - or would be if there was a vote. So Brexit is off?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Dec 11, 2018 11:01:38 GMT
The democratic issue with a second referendum is only if Remain is still an option - when it lost already. A referendum on type of brexit would be ok - even though it would be silly and now it is Parliament that should decide - deal or no deal! And if people were truly interested in the public's view on the largest constitutional change since WW2, they would be actively seeking clear unambiguous consent on the negotiated deal. A second referendum would demonstrate a very odd definition of democracy -people voted to Leave the EU -many MPs (all of whom are there to represent the view of the voters) didn't agree but didn't have the integrity to resign their seats, rather -they got a remainer PM to construct such a messy deal that people and MPs said "no thanks, we don't want that, we'd rather have the EU" -then many MPs said "oh, if you'd like to vote again, perhaps you'll come up with the right answer, then we'll get our way after all"
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 11, 2018 11:15:22 GMT
And if people were truly interested in the public's view on the largest constitutional change since WW2, they would be actively seeking clear unambiguous consent on the negotiated deal. A second referendum would demonstrate a very odd definition of democracy -people voted to Leave the EU -many MPs (all of whom are there to represent the view of the voters) didn't agree but didn't have the integrity to resign their seats, rather -they got a remainer PM to construct such a messy deal that people and MPs said "no thanks, we don't want that, we'd rather have the EU" -then many MPs said "oh, if you'd like to vote again, perhaps you'll come up with the right answer, then we'll get our way after all"
I'd love to see the mythical negotiated deal that a "Leaver PM" would get. This PM was given to us by the Tory party, a Leave party, if she/they have messed it up then that's the reality of our democracy. We aren't going to agree on this (although I will say that I would actively welcome a negotiated Leave deal that was endorsed by a referendum to end this uncertainty), but I suspect we'll agree that UK politics has hit an all time low.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Dec 11, 2018 11:18:32 GMT
A second referendum would demonstrate a very odd definition of democracy -people voted to Leave the EU -many MPs (all of whom are there to represent the view of the voters) didn't agree but didn't have the integrity to resign their seats, rather -they got a remainer PM to construct such a messy deal that people and MPs said "no thanks, we don't want that, we'd rather have the EU" -then many MPs said "oh, if you'd like to vote again, perhaps you'll come up with the right answer, then we'll get our way after all"
I'd love to see the mythical negotiated deal that a "Leaver PM" would get. This PM was given to us by the Tory party, a Leave party, if she/they have messed it up then that's the reality of our democracy. We aren't going to agree on this (although I will say that I would actively welcome a negotiated Leave deal that was endorsed by a referendum to end this uncertainty), but I suspect we'll agree that UK politics has hit an all time low. Not sure the Tories are a Leave party. See www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946 - Tories: 185 MPs supporting Remain, only 138 MPs stated as supporting Leave. Labour 218/10 Remain/Leave. MPs across all parties 158/479 Leave/Remain, making MP split 25%/75% Leave/Remain, showing huge disconnect from voters 52%/48%.
"I suspect we'll agree that UK politics has hit an all time low" - yes.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Dec 11, 2018 11:44:52 GMT
The public does not have the expertise to weigh up a 600 page deal - that is what Parliament is for. in which case deal is firmly rejected - or would be if there was a vote. So Brexit is off? No. If deal on table is rejected, then no deal it should be. I do understand the views of remainers like yourself. I voted to remain so I understand many of the good points of remaining in EU and believe the EU has achieved many great things since it was formed. I also think it does many things wrong and is slowly becoming something bad in many ways. However, the country voted to leave and MPs and us mere mortals should have then united in seeking the best deal possible together - whilst also preparing fully for no deal. Instead we had many who still simply refuse to accept the result and that dramatically weakened our position in negotiations when we should have shown solidarity and complete preparedness for no deal. The EU are not blind or deaf, if we are unprepared for no deal (or something close) and we have our MPs threatening catastrophe in such event, then we allow the EU to control the negotiations, as we did. So the pretty bad deal now offered is frankly due to those MPs who refused to accept the electoral vote because they know better and have been maneuvering ever since to overturn it or totally fudge it. Shameful.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 11, 2018 12:24:56 GMT
in which case deal is firmly rejected - or would be if there was a vote. So Brexit is off? No. If deal on table is rejected, then no deal it should be. I do understand the views of remainers like yourself. I voted to remain so I understand many of the good points of remaining in EU and believe the EU has achieved many great things since it was formed. I also think it does many things wrong and is slowly becoming something bad in many ways. However, the country voted to leave and MPs and us mere mortals should have then united in seeking the best deal possible together - whilst also preparing fully for no deal. Instead we had many who still simply refuse to accept the result and that dramatically weakened our position in negotiations when we should have shown solidarity and complete preparedness for no deal. The EU are not blind or deaf, if we are unprepared for no deal (or something close) and we have our MPs threatening catastrophe in such event, then we allow the EU to control the negotiations, as we did. So the pretty bad deal now offered is frankly due to those MPs who refused to accept the electoral vote because they know better and have been maneuvering ever since to overturn it or totally fudge it. Shameful. No deal was not what was presented in the referendum so has no mandate. Plus parliament (rightly) wont sanction the disaster of leaving with no deal, and it has no popular support (28% last poll). It is (and always was) a bluff that has been called. I agree we should have united, and many Remainers/MPs would have united behind a unifying leader and compromise soft Brexit plan - we didn't get that. We got a fudged half hard Brexit whilst alienating Remainers (who were 48% of voters, now likely higher). We lacked a brave or competent leader and a brave or competent opposition. It has been terrible politics all round, but seeking to blaming Remainers for it is disingenuous.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Dec 11, 2018 12:55:54 GMT
N o deal was not what was presented in the referendum so has no mandate. Plus parliament (rightly) wont sanction the disaster of leaving with no deal, and it has no popular support (28% last poll). It is (and always was) a bluff that has been called. I agree we should have united, and many Remainers/MPs would have united behind a unifying leader and compromise soft Brexit plan - we didn't get that. We got a fudged half hard Brexit whilst alienating Remainers (who were 48% of voters, now likely higher). We lacked a brave or competent leader and a brave or competent opposition. It has been terrible politics all round, but seeking to blaming Remainers for it is disingenuous. That is more "remoaner" nonsense - such as people never voted to make themselves poorer. No they didnt. That because it wasnt on the ballot paper. Just like no deal, good deal, bad deal or anything else. Just LEAVE I am not blaming "Remainers" as some of us accepted that leave won and can get behind brexit to make the most of it (just like Theresa May)
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 11, 2018 12:59:19 GMT
N o deal was not what was presented in the referendum so has no mandate. Plus parliament (rightly) wont sanction the disaster of leaving with no deal, and it has no popular support (28% last poll). It is (and always was) a bluff that has been called. I agree we should have united, and many Remainers/MPs would have united behind a unifying leader and compromise soft Brexit plan - we didn't get that. We got a fudged half hard Brexit whilst alienating Remainers (who were 48% of voters, now likely higher). We lacked a brave or competent leader and a brave or competent opposition. It has been terrible politics all round, but seeking to blaming Remainers for it is disingenuous. That is more "remoaner" nonsense - such as people never voted to make themselves poorer. No they didnt. That because it wasnt on the ballot paper. Just like no deal, good deal, bad deal or anything else. Just LEAVE I am not blaming "Remainers" as some of us accepted that leave won and can get behind brexit to make the most of it (just like Theresa May) btw the "remoaner" label is exactly what I am talking about in terms of alienating half the electorate. Talk of uniting is meaningless in those circumstances.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Dec 11, 2018 13:11:33 GMT
... but uniting can only be done by leaving and enacting the vote. So I agree remoaners are by definition not going to unite. and Remoaners do not account for half the electorate. Remainers counted for 48% - remoaners probably about 5%. Shame Parliament is not reflective of that. We would have a much better deal
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Post by charlata on Dec 11, 2018 14:22:32 GMT
It's a very funny definition of democracy whereby the current electorate can't remain because a previous electorate wanted to leave. How long do we have to wait?
A rough calculation says around a million leave voters have died since the last referendum, and a million remain voters have turned 18. Basic biology means remain gets more likely every day that passes.
If Johnson, Davis and Fox and an ounce of pragmatism between them they'd have joined the EFTA 2 years ago, and might already be negotiating to break away further still. Instead they clung to an idea that they could negotiate Canada triple plus in a couple or evenings over brandy. The leave politicians who ran Brexit for most of the period since the referendum are lazy unrealistic and incompetent. They've failed. The UK will remain.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 11, 2018 14:36:25 GMT
It's a very funny definition of democracy whereby the current electorate can't remain because a previous electorate wanted to leave. How long do we have to wait?
A rough calculation says around a million leave voters have died since the last referendum, and a million remain voters have turned 18. Basic biology means remain gets more likely every day that passes.
If Johnson, Davis and Fox and an ounce of pragmatism between them they'd have joined the EFTA 2 years ago, and might already be negotiating to break away further still. Instead they clung to an idea that they could negotiate Canada triple plus in a couple or evenings over brandy. The leave politicians who ran Brexit for most of the period since the referendum are lazy unrealistic and incompetent. They've failed. The UK will remain.
Exactly this - soft Brexit to represent and unite the essentially split electorate, then (if possible) negotiate a good FTA from a position of strength not weakness. But that would have required leadership and courage, of which we have had precisely zero. I keep getting the urge to use the football chant "two nil and you f***** it up". Having said that, 3-2 comebacks are rare so I wouldn't bank on remain prevailing just yet.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Dec 11, 2018 14:52:32 GMT
in which case deal is firmly rejected - or would be if there was a vote. So Brexit is off? No. If deal on table is rejected, then no deal it should be. I do understand the views of remainers like yourself. I voted to remain so I understand many of the good points of remaining in EU and believe the EU has achieved many great things since it was formed. I also think it does many things wrong and is slowly becoming something bad in many ways. However, the country voted to leave and MPs and us mere mortals should have then united in seeking the best deal possible together - whilst also preparing fully for no deal. Instead we had many who still simply refuse to accept the result and that dramatically weakened our position in negotiations when we should have shown solidarity and complete preparedness for no deal. The EU are not blind or deaf, if we are unprepared for no deal (or something close) and we have our MPs threatening catastrophe in such event, then we allow the EU to control the negotiations, as we did. So the pretty bad deal now offered is frankly due to those MPs who refused to accept the electoral vote because they know better and have been maneuvering ever since to overturn it or totally fudge it. Shameful. Sums up my view exactly dandy. [Thumbs Up emoticon here]
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Dec 11, 2018 15:07:04 GMT
Exactly this - soft Brexit to represent and unite the essentially split electorate, then (if possible) negotiate a good FTA from a position of strength not weakness. But that would have required leadership and courage, of which we have had precisely zero. I keep getting the urge to use the football chant "two nil and you f***** it up". Having said that, 3-2 comebacks are rare so I wouldn't bank on remain prevailing just yet. "the referee's a w****r" may be more appropriate for you (or at least self confessed remoaners)
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Dec 11, 2018 15:22:06 GMT
It's a very funny definition of democracy whereby the current electorate can't remain because a previous electorate wanted to leave. How long do we have to wait?
Long enough that we exited for a number of years, not having remainers wanting to overturn the vote before it happens.
"Mr (Hilary) Benn says going back to the people is "not without risk" in terms of the legitimacy of a second referendum, phrasing the question and working out what method would be used if two or more questions were to be asked." - www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-46506969
May presumably thinks if she delays the vote to 21 Jan 2019, MPs will vote for it as they'll have little time to arrange for no deal (which May has deliberately not prepared for). She's on borrowed time.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 11, 2018 16:05:49 GMT
It's a very funny definition of democracy whereby the current electorate can't remain because a previous electorate wanted to leave. How long do we have to wait?
A rough calculation says around a million leave voters have died since the last referendum, and a million remain voters have turned 18. Basic biology means remain gets more likely every day that passes.
If Johnson, Davis and Fox and an ounce of pragmatism between them they'd have joined the EFTA 2 years ago, and might already be negotiating to break away further still. Instead they clung to an idea that they could negotiate Canada triple plus in a couple or evenings over brandy. The leave politicians who ran Brexit for most of the period since the referendum are lazy unrealistic and incompetent. They've failed. The UK will remain.
On that basis we should be having general elections every year, and local election probably every month as the electorate will be consistently changing. The leave politicians are no more lazy, unrealistic & incompetent than any of the others.
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