travolta
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Post by travolta on Dec 18, 2018 18:55:55 GMT
Read a second hand telegraph today and emailed my MP again . Useless shite.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 18, 2018 21:10:18 GMT
I don't think us lot on a sub-thread of an investment forum are suddenly going to hit on an all-pleasing solution to the current conundrum. Why not ? Somebody's got to come up with a solution somewhere, and it's unlikely it will come from the so called 'expert' politicians. I think the main problem is Ireland. If Ireland became a single country, in or out of the EU, the British problem with Brexit would be much more easily solved. I thought some years ago it looked promising that Ireland would unite but it didn't happen. I would like to add that I have Grandparents from both Northern and Southern Ireland so not trying to start an 'Irish' argument.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Dec 18, 2018 21:40:01 GMT
Why not ? Somebody's got to come up with a solution somewhere, and it's unlikely it will come from the so called 'expert' politicians. I think the main problem is Ireland. If Ireland became a single country, in or out of the EU, the British problem with Brexit would be much more easily solved. I thought some years ago it looked promising that Ireland would unite but it didn't happen. I would like to add that I have Grandparents from both Northern and Southern Ireland so not trying to start an 'Irish' argument. Beidh muc ag eitilt
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 18, 2018 23:52:02 GMT
Why not ? Somebody's got to come up with a solution somewhere, and it's unlikely it will come from the so called 'expert' politicians. I think the main problem is Ireland. If Ireland became a single country, in or out of the EU, the British problem with Brexit would be much more easily solved. I thought some years ago it looked promising that Ireland would unite but it didn't happen. I would like to add that I have Grandparents from both Northern and Southern Ireland so not trying to start an 'Irish' argument. The arrogance of blaming the Irish ("The main problem is Ireland") for a wholly self-inflicted British problem is absolutely astounding. Next we'll be wanting to starve them into submission or something outrageous. Oh...
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 19, 2018 0:04:34 GMT
Those that want another referendum want it to be fixed in their favour. What would the question be ? It should be the same as last time in or out. Anything else tries to take advantage by offering TM plan or in. Some who want to leave without a deal may not vote. There is no scenario where anything other than in or out is not advantageous to those who want to remain they will always vote to remain so there is no chance of their vote going down. By offering anything else the only effect would be on leave voters who may not vote as there is no certainty of exactly what will happen and we won’t for several years. The only comprises is go out now as was the result and stay out as option one Option two go out now and have another vote in 20years after things have settled and EU probably in chaos. If you really want to have "no deal" on the paper (although I don't believe Parliament would agree), a simple preferential vote system will sort that out ("no deal" v "May's deal" v "current deal" - aka Remain - placed in order of preference) and not split the Leave vote unfairly. If anything has come out of two and a half years of useless politicians arguing it is that there is no such thing as "just leave". You might as well say something helpful like "Brexit means Brexit". At the moment we have two Brexits on clear offer - May's deal or no deal - anything else is largely irrelevant (e.g. Norway or Canada); we had 2.5 years to negotiate it and we didn't. Finally, if you don't offer Remain in a referendum you are being profoundly undemocratic given that a) 48.1% chose that last time in a very close call, b) every opinion poll now suggests the public's opinion has changed and c) that no electorate can bind its successors is a basic rule of democracy.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 19, 2018 0:31:57 GMT
Those that want another referendum want it to be fixed in their favour. What would the question be ? It should be the same as last time in or out. Anything else tries to take advantage by offering TM plan or in. Some who want to leave without a deal may not vote. There is no scenario where anything other than in or out is not advantageous to those who want to remain they will always vote to remain so there is no chance of their vote going down. By offering anything else the only effect would be on leave voters who may not vote as there is no certainty of exactly what will happen and we won’t for several years. The only comprises is go out now as was the result and stay out as option one Option two go out now and have another vote in 20years after things have settled and EU probably in chaos. If you really want to have "no deal" on the paper (although I don't believe Parliament would agree), a simple preferential vote system will sort that out ("no deal" v "May's deal" v "current deal" - aka Remain - placed in order of preference) and not split the Leave vote unfairly. If anything has come out of two and a half years of useless politicians arguing it is that there is no such thing as "just leave". You might as well say something helpful like "Brexit means Brexit". At the moment we have two Brexits on clear offer - May's deal or no deal - anything else is largely irrelevant (e.g. Norway or Canada); we had 2.5 years to negotiate it and we didn't. Finally, if you don't offer Remain in a referendum you are being profoundly undemocratic given that a) 48.1% chose that last time in a very close call, b) every opinion poll now suggests the public's opinion has changed and c) that no electorate can bind its successors is a basic rule of democracy. no parliament can bind is successors is the correct rule ... No electorate would be nonsense as that would require the original referendum to be rerun after every GE since 1973/5. The current parliament passed the withdrawal bill so is not bound by previous parliament actions and this Parliament was elected on manifestos which for both main parties included carrying out the result of the referendum.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Dec 19, 2018 2:19:46 GMT
Simple and democratic. Stay as we are or leave.
You can’t argue you don’t know what leave means because you don’t know what stay means. Federalism EU Army we get outvoted all the time look at David Cameron’s attempt to get better deals for UK it went nowhere
it’s a risk any way at least leaving we take the responsibility for our own actions
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Dec 19, 2018 2:26:58 GMT
Read a second hand telegraph today and emailed my MP again . Useless shite. Come on now with all the cash you make from your P2P investments you can buy your own Telegraph.... Whoops my mistake can I borrow it next... Of course me as a borrower you may never get it back or you may get it back missing a few pages and no supplement..
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 19, 2018 7:25:58 GMT
If you really want to have "no deal" on the paper (although I don't believe Parliament would agree), a simple preferential vote system will sort that out ("no deal" v "May's deal" v "current deal" - aka Remain - placed in order of preference) and not split the Leave vote unfairly. If anything has come out of two and a half years of useless politicians arguing it is that there is no such thing as "just leave". You might as well say something helpful like "Brexit means Brexit". At the moment we have two Brexits on clear offer - May's deal or no deal - anything else is largely irrelevant (e.g. Norway or Canada); we had 2.5 years to negotiate it and we didn't. Finally, if you don't offer Remain in a referendum you are being profoundly undemocratic given that a) 48.1% chose that last time in a very close call, b) every opinion poll now suggests the public's opinion has changed and c) that no electorate can bind its successors is a basic rule of democracy. no parliament can bind is successors is the correct rule ... No electorate would be nonsense as that would require the original referendum to be rerun after every GE since 1973/5. The current parliament passed the withdrawal bill so is not bound by previous parliament actions and this Parliament was elected on manifestos which for both main parties included carrying out the result of the referendum. You don't have to rerun referendums - I am countering the argument that you can't have a referendum now because we already had it and Remain lost. Even Rees-Mogg initially suggested a two stage referendum process, with one on the actual deal negotiated. Latest poll has Remain on 59% v Leave with deal on offer 41% - 18 point Remain lead. Of those certain to vote the lead is 26 points. Both main parties ought to be thinking very carefully Indeed about going through with either May's deal or a no deal exit without explicit public consent. Whilst I agree they could rely on their manifestos, no manifesto contained the actual deal that has been negotiated nor a no deal exit. Unfortunately, careful thinking has been in very short supply.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 19, 2018 8:50:08 GMT
I think the main problem is Ireland. If Ireland became a single country, in or out of the EU, the British problem with Brexit would be much more easily solved. I thought some years ago it looked promising that Ireland would unite but it didn't happen. I would like to add that I have Grandparents from both Northern and Southern Ireland so not trying to start an 'Irish' argument. The arrogance of blaming the Irish ("The main problem is Ireland") for a wholly self-inflicted British problem is absolutely astounding. Next we'll be wanting to starve them into submission or something outrageous. Oh... I'm about 50% Irish, I meant Ireland is in so many ways already one country and the border is no longer a real border a united Ireland is the logical future. Currently how the border between north and south is managed is I think an impossible obstacle to Brexit. I'm not blaming the Irish it's just historically how things are.
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Post by valerieb on Dec 19, 2018 9:11:37 GMT
The whole issue is readily solved as suggested recently by a witty contributor to the Telegraph: "Alexa, is this a good deal?"
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Post by valerieb on Dec 19, 2018 10:56:46 GMT
.......and the answer is that "It's my opinion that counts"! Bribes welcome but my current view, admittedly liable to change, is that the way forward is for a parliamentary vote over 4 options to be ranked, namely 1. No deal 2. May's deal 3. Canada style deal 4. Norway style deal i'm assuming these last two are viable options, acceptable to the EU and that MPs understand what they entail. Although I voted Remain, I'm not a Remoaner. Democratically speaking, in my view, Remain is no longer an option for a vote. The time to make the case for EU membership was before the referendum and over the many decades of our membership prior to that when positive coverage of the EU was lamentably lacking.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 19, 2018 11:25:58 GMT
.......and the answer is that "It's my opinion that counts"! Bribes welcome but my current view, admittedly liable to change, is that the way forward is for a parliamentary vote over 4 options to be ranked, namely 1. No deal 2. May's deal 3. Canada style deal 4. Norway style deal i'm assuming these last two are viable options, acceptable to the EU and that MPs understand what they entail. Although I voted Remain, I'm not a Remoaner. Democratically speaking, in my view, Remain is no longer an option for a vote. The time to make the case for EU membership was before the referendum and over the many decades of our membership prior to that when positive coverage of the EU was lamentably lacking. This is the bit I don't understand - I am not sure what form of democracy takes an option off the table permanently because a previous electorate voted for/against it. There are countless examples of mature democracies that have rerun the same referendum, which in any case is not quite the suggestion here now that there is a deal in black and white to be considered.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Dec 19, 2018 12:03:04 GMT
.......and the answer is that "It's my opinion that counts"! Bribes welcome but my current view, admittedly liable to change, is that the way forward is for a parliamentary vote over 4 options to be ranked, namely 1. No deal 2. May's deal 3. Canada style deal 4. Norway style deal i'm assuming these last two are viable options, acceptable to the EU and that MPs understand what they entail. Although I voted Remain, I'm not a Remoaner. Democratically speaking, in my view, Remain is no longer an option for a vote. The time to make the case for EU membership was before the referendum and over the many decades of our membership prior to that when positive coverage of the EU was lamentably lacking. This is the bit I don't understand - I am not sure what form of democracy takes an option off the table permanently because a previous electorate voted for/against it. There are countless examples of mature democracies that have rerun the same referendum, which in any case is not quite the suggestion here now that there is a deal in black and white to be considered. Especially when what was voted for was a smorgasbord of mistruths and what was delivered is the political equivalent of a bowl of to-be-determined gruel attached to a chain by the EU. Pushing forward with this deal or anything similar on the basis of democracy is a little more than flawed in my view. If the fact that no one group in Parliament can suggest a type of Brexit that even close to a majority of people actually want doesn't put you off, then democratically speaking some form of consensus should have been formed 2.5 years ago before May went rushing head-long. Leave voters were totally screwed over. Btw, despite protestations to the contrary, if May's (frankly despicable) war games backfire and we somehow do end up at No-Deal then can you imagine the impact to P2P? Some platforms have come out with 'it'll be fine whatever happens'. Sure - medicine and food supplies may be rationed, but sub-prime lending? Nothing to worry about.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Dec 19, 2018 12:31:10 GMT
.......and the answer is that "It's my opinion that counts"! Bribes welcome but my current view, admittedly liable to change, is that the way forward is for a parliamentary vote over 4 options to be ranked, namely 1. No deal 2. May's deal 3. Canada style deal 4. Norway style deal i'm assuming these last two are viable options, acceptable to the EU and that MPs understand what they entail. Although I voted Remain, I'm not a Remoaner. Democratically speaking, in my view, Remain is no longer an option for a vote. The time to make the case for EU membership was before the referendum and over the many decades of our membership prior to that when positive coverage of the EU was lamentably lacking. This is the bit I don't understand - I am not sure what form of democracy takes an option off the table permanently because a previous electorate voted for/against it. There are countless examples of mature democracies that have rerun the same referendum, which in any case is not quite the suggestion here now that there is a deal in black and white to be considered. Anything other than Binary in or out will be bias as all wishing to remain will vote to remain. The rest would always be split therefore remain wins. Hence the feverish attempt to get another referendum. Nobody who voted to leave wants another as it is fixed from the start. If you disagree give me an example where all those that voted to stay would loose on non binary referendum which only splits leave vote. Also Norway 🇳🇴 Said it would veto any such deal proposed as it was better than they have.
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