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Post by martin44 on Feb 5, 2019 23:23:17 GMT
If we're doing ironies, I don't suppose many of the quitters have noticed that on the other side of the North Sea, the alt right and national sovereignty parties have quietly dropped the idea of leaving the EU, and are instead set to make big gains in the European elections. If the British wing could only have waited, they might just have seen the EU reformed to something more in line with their vision. Seems to be a common conception amongst the ill educated, post Baby Boomers, that all Leavers must be proto nazis. A sad example of the execrable education and teaching of the last 30 yrs , that we baby boomers landed on our 'kids' because we didn't want the stress. What goes around ,comes around. absolutely... i always considered myself centre right. along the lines of JR Mogg or Boris.. i now find myself being described as an extreme right winger.. along the lines of the KKK or some french marine le pen advocate.  im happy to be pro british/pro brexit with a simple attitude of "Lets leave and see where it takes us.. i'm sure i can handle both the good and bad"
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Post by captainconfident on Feb 5, 2019 23:40:08 GMT
I'll give you my 60 day Brexit forecast.
1) May will come back from Brussels with insufficient guarantees to get her deal passed.
2) Both Cooper-Bowles and the Grieve amendments reappear on 14th February and this time pass.
3) Britain does not leave the EU on 29th March due to further mandates from parliament following the passing of these amendments.
That's as far as Nostra-confident can see into the future. But I'd hazard a guess that referendum is the most likely step following that.
This isn't 'remainer talk', just saying, with this parliament, this seems to me the likely course of events.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 6, 2019 0:36:32 GMT
I'll give you my 60 day Brexit forecast. 1) May will come back from Brussels with insufficient guarantees to get her deal passed. 2) Both Cooper-Bowles and the Grieve amendments reappear on 14th February and this time pass. 3) Britain does not leave the EU on 29th March due to further mandates from parliament following the passing of these amendments. That's as far as Nostra-confident can see into the future. But I'd hazard a guess that referendum is the most likely step following that. This isn't 'remainer talk', just saying, with this parliament, this seems to me the likely course of events. Agree with all three. However, I would put a subsequent compromise of some sort to get enough Labour MPs on board as more likely than a referendum. Corbyn is a Leaver, his party is for Remain, and May's one and only skill is to play partisan politics so she will make Labour suffer (and maybe split) as much as she possibly can. When push comes to shove, Tories stick together, whatever the ERG threatens at the moment. Oh, she has another skill too - inscrutability - so she will plough on and on, giving nothing away in her pathologically secretive manner and being as bloody difficult a woman as Ken Clark always made her out to be right until the (probably very) bitter end.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 6, 2019 0:43:57 GMT
my bold. being a Tory, and, being a beneficiary myself of the council house sell of, i cannot help but feel that the sales proceeds were never directed to the promised land of rebuilding further council houses, its a well known fact that in most circumstances outside of London, the sale of a house can produce the funds to build 2, it was a great idea, but only half the idea was ever carried forward. Totally agree, M. Thatcher is vilified but was let down by her successors, none of whom were interested in anything but a power grab and clinging to power .There was none of the planned regeneration of the industrial areas. Housing stock was not renewed and all was ignored in favour of the grants and benefits promised by the Holy Grail of the EU . Workers left to languish without employment ,but HEY! lets give them an arts centre and a rock and roll museum sponsored by a gold circle of stars on a blue background and employing Gemma, some one's daughter who has finished her degree in circus studies. No wonder we all took to crystal meth. Amazing - it's now the EU's fault that Thatcher and her successors did not allow Councils to spend money from sale of council housing on building new housing stock! Nothing whatsoever to do with ideology and Thatcher's insistence on a property owning democracy?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 6, 2019 0:50:48 GMT
Seems to be a common conception amongst the ill educated, post Baby Boomers, that all Leavers must be proto nazis. A sad example of the execrable education and teaching of the last 30 yrs , that we baby boomers landed on our 'kids' because we didn't want the stress. What goes around ,comes around. absolutely... i always considered myself centre right. along the lines of JR Mogg or Boris.. i now find myself being described as an extreme right winger.. along the lines of the KKK or some french marine le pen advocate. im happy to be pro british/pro brexit with a simple attitude of " Lets leave and see where it takes us.. i'm sure i can handle both the good and bad"Brilliant slogan. If the bad turns out more than the good, will Leavers admit it was the wrong decision? I'll admit leaving was right if there's more good than bad. We can even pre-define good and bad.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Feb 6, 2019 1:51:17 GMT
absolutely... i always considered myself centre right. along the lines of JR Mogg or Boris.. i now find myself being described as an extreme right winger.. along the lines of the KKK or some french marine le pen advocate. im happy to be pro british/pro brexit with a simple attitude of " Lets leave and see where it takes us.. i'm sure i can handle both the good and bad"Brilliant slogan. If the bad turns out more than the good, will Leavers admit it was the wrong decision? I'll admit leaving was right if there's more good than bad. We can even pre-define good and bad. In 20 years there will be neither good or bad just different.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Feb 6, 2019 1:58:58 GMT
I'll give you my 60 day Brexit forecast. 1) May will come back from Brussels with insufficient guarantees to get her deal passed. 2) Both Cooper-Bowles and the Grieve amendments reappear on 14th February and this time pass. 3) Britain does not leave the EU on 29th March due to further mandates from parliament following the passing of these amendments. That's as far as Nostra-confident can see into the future. But I'd hazard a guess that referendum is the most likely step following that. This isn't 'remainer talk', just saying, with this parliament, this seems to me the likely course of events. Brave of you to give 60 day predictions. We won’t have long to wait to see if you are correct. (unlike Adrian77 failure league )
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Post by charlata on Feb 6, 2019 8:53:25 GMT
If we're doing ironies, I don't suppose many of the quitters have noticed that on the other side of the North Sea, the alt right and national sovereignty parties have quietly dropped the idea of leaving the EU, and are instead set to make big gains in the European elections. If the British wing could only have waited, they might just have seen the EU reformed to something more in line with their vision. Seems to be a common conception amongst the ill educated, post Baby Boomers, that all Leavers must be proto nazis. A sad example of the execrable education and teaching of the last 30 yrs , that we baby boomers landed on our 'kids' because we didn't want the stress. What goes around ,comes around. You seem very upset. I should perhaps have included a trigger warning at the start of my post.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Feb 6, 2019 10:15:13 GMT
Totally agree, M. Thatcher is vilified but was let down by her successors, none of whom were interested in anything but a power grab and clinging to power .There was none of the planned regeneration of the industrial areas. Housing stock was not renewed and all was ignored in favour of the grants and benefits promised by the Holy Grail of the EU . Workers left to languish without employment ,but HEY! lets give them an arts centre and a rock and roll museum sponsored by a gold circle of stars on a blue background and employing Gemma, some one's daughter who has finished her degree in circus studies. No wonder we all took to crystal meth. Amazing - it's now the EU's fault that Thatcher and her successors did not allow Councils to spend money from sale of council housing on building new housing stock! Nothing whatsoever to do with ideology and Thatcher's insistence on a property owning democracy? If you look at the time line MT was booted out quite smartly and the dumb grey males closed ranks and played self promotion with Europe instead. Just watch Ken Clarke (little shxt).
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Feb 6, 2019 10:25:46 GMT
Totally agree, M. Thatcher is vilified but was let down by her successors, none of whom were interested in anything but a power grab and clinging to power .There was none of the planned regeneration of the industrial areas. Housing stock was not renewed and all was ignored in favour of the grants and benefits promised by the Holy Grail of the EU . Workers left to languish without employment ,but HEY! lets give them an arts centre and a rock and roll museum sponsored by a gold circle of stars on a blue background and employing Gemma, some one's daughter who has finished her degree in circus studies. No wonder we all took to crystal meth. Amazing - it's now the EU's fault that Thatcher and her successors did not allow Councils to spend money from sale of council housing on building new housing stock! Nothing whatsoever to do with ideology and Thatcher's insistence on a property owning democracy? Actually no. Nothing is Europe's fault. The fault lies with politicians as far back as Churchill who see a European Union as some kind of gravy train to smooth over the demise of the UK and so they don't have to address domestic issues that have been simmering since 1920.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 6, 2019 10:29:49 GMT
Amazing - it's now the EU's fault that Thatcher and her successors did not allow Councils to spend money from sale of council housing on building new housing stock! Nothing whatsoever to do with ideology and Thatcher's insistence on a property owning democracy? If you look at the time line MT was booted out quite smartly and the dumb grey males closed ranks and played self promotion with Europe instead. Just watch Ken Clarke (little shxt). Right to buy was passed by Thatcher government in the 1980 Housing Act. She was in power for 10 more years after that. One million council houses had been sold by 1987. What this has to do with the EU is quite beyond me.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 6, 2019 12:08:29 GMT
(edit:) That's me damned for eternity!
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 6, 2019 12:16:05 GMT
That's me doomed for eternity!
Sorry about that cb25 - but - he's right, you know...
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Post by samford71 on Feb 6, 2019 13:20:56 GMT
That's me doomed for eternity!
Sorry about that cb25 - but - he's right, you know...
Many Leaver politicians still don't really have any understanding of even the basics of the EU exit process and the possible alternatives. Or understand even the basics of WTO rules, NTBs, TBTs, bilateral agreements etc; how the acquis do/do not apply inside say EEA/EFTA vs. CU scenarios. Frankly, most have little or no intellectual curiosity. They prefer to cower behind their ideological beliefs to confronting empirical data. Of course, many Remainer politicians have similar weaknesses.
The basic problem is that when you pay peanuts, you do tend to get monkeys. Most of those with genuine intellect or ambition for power understand that it is far easier now to operate through politicians than become one. Politicans are cheap to hire and easy to manipulate. I often take presentations from think tanks (Cato, Legatum etc) in my day-job. These think tanks, mainly backed by US libertarian oligarchs, love to present their ideas for the future of the UK once we reach the 'sunny uplands'. Tagging along, and in their pay, are well-known Leaver MPs, ex-Ministers and even current Ministers. They are all grubbing around for financial backing from us when their career opportunity comes a knocking. It's amazing what people will do for a bit of hard cash.
Of course there are exceptions to this. Most of these Leave politicians, however, are smart enough to understand that is probably better not to tell the voters what the actual end-game is.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Feb 6, 2019 13:56:06 GMT
Seems to be a common conception amongst the ill educated, post Baby Boomers, that all Leavers must be proto nazis. A sad example of the execrable education and teaching of the last 30 yrs , that we baby boomers landed on our 'kids' because we didn't want the stress. What goes around ,comes around. You seem very upset. I should perhaps have included a trigger warning at the start of my post. Don't worry us grumpy old folks lived through the "Never had it so good era" We can take it on the chin.
However a warning at the start of every post should be. "WARNING participation in this debate will result in "Snowflakes" being melted"
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