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Post by martin44 on Mar 21, 2019 20:14:27 GMT
I wouldn't sign that rubbish if my life depended on it. Personally i believe in the democratic will of the people, outside of the ERG and TM there seems to be a distinct lack of respect for it. edit.. i'll vote here instead petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963
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Post by beepbeepimajeep on Mar 21, 2019 20:57:29 GMT
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Post by beepbeepimajeep on Mar 21, 2019 22:13:12 GMT
The EU leaders have tonight lost their united face and are currently unable to agree on the extension/conditions for such an extension. Whatever they finally come out with it has changed several times in the last few hours and somebody will be going back on what they said earlier.
The reason they are so divided and flustered is because they know they are staring a no deal exit in the face and they DO NOT WANT THAT. Just shows it is our best bargaining chip to get a fair deal that works for everyone.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 22, 2019 2:09:59 GMT
We've got Mark Carney for the BoE. I wouldn't have a problem with (as in read as "would give my right leg for) Jacinda Ardern for PM. She has more class in her little finger than the entire Tory party. ozboy sorry, but this one comes from across the water .
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Mar 22, 2019 8:23:54 GMT
Well, all of this will keep media studies students busy for a generation. There's different lenses applied to the same events, and then there's the Daily Mail:
"May Calls EU's bluff on No Deal"
Because, yep, that's exactly what happened last night. A May masterstroke masquerading as a humiliating ongoing empty vessel having it's direction set by others. Reading other papers or indeed talking to other people must be a troubling experience for those who read this 'paper'.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 22, 2019 8:33:46 GMT
Well, all of this will keep media studies students busy for a generation. There's different lenses applied to the same events, and then there's the Daily Mail: "May Calls EU's bluff on No Deal" Appears to have done an about turn.
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Post by bracknellboy on Mar 22, 2019 8:51:42 GMT
... The reason they are so divided and flustered is because they know they are staring a no deal exit in the face and they DO NOT WANT THAT. Just shows it is our best bargaining chip to get a fair deal that works for everyone. It takes 27 to unanimously agree to extensions etc. I think France at least may have got to the point that it would prefer to start moving to a no deal than further chaos. Of all the countries, while they not which to say so publicly, France is probably the one that is most happy for the UK to leave. The UK popular press view of a German-France alliance driving the EU had been out of date for about 15 years; in recent times Germany was generally far more comfortable allying with the UK and other northern EU countries. Up until the ref. of course. Brexit has been a gift from heaven for France in terms of getting greaster influence back.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Mar 22, 2019 9:12:56 GMT
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 22, 2019 9:51:22 GMT
Just waiting for Speaker to be consistent & rule out new Benn/Cooper/Boles, or any Labour CU, second referendum amendments as not materially different to those previously rejected by House in same session to make things even more bonkers.
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Mar 22, 2019 10:19:09 GMT
Negotiating the divorce bill before agreeing a future relationship/free trade deal is similar to you walking into a shop and the shopkeeper saying "that will be £100 please" then asking "now what do you want?" without actually having a requirement to give you anything at all. MPs calling for taking no deal off the table is similar to saying no matter how bad the deal is you can't leave the shop until you've made a purchase. Is that a situation you'd be happy with personally?
I'm pretty suspicious that remain MPs (which was around 75% of them) have engineered it that way to get us such a bad deal that we extend the Brexit date and eventually submit and return to the fold within a couple of years. The only thing that is likely to stop them is both major parties getting decimated in a general election in favour of a pro brexit party.
Yeah, remain MPs 75% of them. LET ME REMIND YOU that first there was a referendum, then there was a General Election when the British people elected this parliament. Therefore this parliament represents a more recent expression of The Will of the people. Now. copacetic, I ask you, how did you vote in the AV referendum? Because the voting system in the UK is not suitable for this century but the two self serving parties will not release their grip and allow a system where an independent thinker can have a chance to win or an intelligent voter has a choice of candidate who has any chance if they have not confirmed to a party line. You see that on the one hand, I do think that MPs are doing a proper job in defeating a terrible second rate deal rammed at them by an imaginationless PM. But the position we are in after nearly three years is caused by the subservient time servers who slavishly follow the line of the two domnent parties because that is how they worked their way to being an MP and that is the world they know. Our view of these MPs is coloured by the cast of 25 or so of them who appear on a media shows. But I tell you that the ones you don't see are in the main mediocre minds who are not trusted to speak in public but are in parliament on the coat tails of their party which placed them in safe seats where a majority of voters did not vote for them. They did this because these are reliable party line stooges. The electoral system is gamed by the two main parties and treats us like children. I'm not really sure what you mean in your first paragraph. Both major parties were elected in 2017 on manifestos that stated they would respect the referendum result and leave the EU. In my opinion standing for election on a manifesto and then quietly working to undermine it is a pretty dishonourable thing to do. It rightly nearly wiped out the lib dems when the conservative lib dem coalition government caused them to break their student tuition fee pledge.
Regarding the AV I agree that the current FPTP system is poor. In NI our MLAs are elected using the single transferable vote system, but I'd just point out that not many people think our current crop of MLAs are competent or worth their salaries (mind you they probably cost us less sitting at home than they would let loose in government). To turn your question on its head though, what if the AV referendum had voted in favour of the AV but the parties in power tried to thwart the result because it would cost them seats? Should the electorate stand for that?
I think respecting the original referendum result is a major democratic consideration regardless of what you think the economic consequences of Brexit will be. If politicians can procrastinate and delay implementation until negative propoganda changes public sentiment, break manifesto pledges without consequence and ultimately thwart referendum results do we really live in a democracy?
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 22, 2019 12:07:56 GMT
In my opinion standing for election on a manifesto and then quietly working to undermine it is a pretty dishonourable thing to do.
MPs stood as individuals. Undermining the manifesto is not any sort of crime or vice.. My MP made it very clear that he would not be bound by any of his party's manifesto that he disagreed with (Zeichner, Cambridge). Manifestos have never been sacrosanct and chunks of them are ignored wholesale by the parties in power. And the individual MPs are not bound by them at all.
As to whether the 2016 referendum result can be overturned, it can be overturned by another referendum without any offence to democracy because it is simply a poll of opinion at two different times. There is as much reason to insist that the the mid-2016 result is the absolute and ever enduring opinion of the British people as it it to insist the same for the 1976 referendum result.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 22, 2019 12:12:32 GMT
Ha, apparently the EU doesnt know whether the no deal extension is until midnight 11th April or midnight 12th April.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 22, 2019 12:21:56 GMT
Yeah, remain MPs 75% of them. LET ME REMIND YOU that first there was a referendum, then there was a General Election when the British people elected this parliament. Therefore this parliament represents a more recent expression of The Will of the people. Now. copacetic, I ask you, how did you vote in the AV referendum? Because the voting system in the UK is not suitable for this century but the two self serving parties will not release their grip and allow a system where an independent thinker can have a chance to win or an intelligent voter has a choice of candidate who has any chance if they have not confirmed to a party line. You see that on the one hand, I do think that MPs are doing a proper job in defeating a terrible second rate deal rammed at them by an imaginationless PM. But the position we are in after nearly three years is caused by the subservient time servers who slavishly follow the line of the two domnent parties because that is how they worked their way to being an MP and that is the world they know. Our view of these MPs is coloured by the cast of 25 or so of them who appear on a media shows. But I tell you that the ones you don't see are in the main mediocre minds who are not trusted to speak in public but are in parliament on the coat tails of their party which placed them in safe seats where a majority of voters did not vote for them. They did this because these are reliable party line stooges. The electoral system is gamed by the two main parties and treats us like children. I'm not really sure what you mean in your first paragraph. Both major parties were elected in 2017 on manifestos that stated they would respect the referendum result and leave the EU. In my opinion standing for election on a manifesto and then quietly working to undermine it is a pretty dishonourable thing to do. It rightly nearly wiped out the lib dems when the conservative lib dem coalition government caused them to break their student tuition fee pledge.
Regarding the AV I agree that the current FPTP system is poor. In NI our MLAs are elected using the single transferable vote system, but I'd just point out that not many people think our current crop of MLAs are competent or worth their salaries (mind you they probably cost us less sitting at home than they would let loose in government). To turn your question on its head though, what if the AV referendum had voted in favour of the AV but the parties in power tried to thwart the result because it would cost them seats? Should the electorate stand for that?
I think respecting the original referendum result is a major democratic consideration regardless of what you think the economic consequences of Brexit will be. If politicians can procrastinate and delay implementation until negative propoganda changes public sentiment, break manifesto pledges without consequence and ultimately thwart referendum results do we really live in a democracy? We don't live in a democracy if a change in public opinion cannot be reflected by asking them again, that's for sure. Whether we SHOULD ask them again is one question to which there are a different opinions. However it simply cannot be anti-democratic to ask them again.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 22, 2019 13:37:45 GMT
I wouldn't sign that rubbish if my life depended on it. Personally i believe in the democratic will of the people, outside of the ERG and TM there seems to be a distinct lack of respect for it. edit.. i'll vote here instead petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963 I'll sign both petitions and then I can sit back and feel i contributed to both campaigns. (I've just realised that this IS a democracy and I only have a single vote...) I love it when a clear plan comes together;) . Edit: I'm not sure that the petitions are that equal it would seem there is a 10 fold or more difference and it looks like "Revoke Article 50" has quite a lead!.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 22, 2019 13:38:52 GMT
Ha, apparently the EU doesnt know whether the no deal extension is until midnight 11th April or midnight 12th April. Ah that old car insurance chestnut rears its head again, they should have used 00:01 like the CO-OP do, oops I mean CIS or whatever they call themselves these days ...
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