IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 22, 2018 10:44:27 GMT
It is not another brexit referendum we need.
MP's only agreed to the first referendum because they thought there was no way that the people would vote leave, and a significant number of them have spent the last 18 months trying to stop it from happening.
If MP's can't agree on what form of Brexit we should have, maybe we could have another referendum with just various leave options on the ballot paper. Then the people could decide.
It would be very brave of either of the main political parties to support a process which resulted in us staying. They would surely feel the wrath of the 17m that voted to leave.
If there were a referendum with a remain option, and if a majority of people voted for that now they know what leave means in practice (2 very big ifs), then the 17 million (or at least the number that hadn't changed their minds) would no longer be the majority and their wrath would be misplaced. Put another way - if both parties support a process in which the current large majority are not heard (remain has consistent big leads in the polls now) they will face the ecen greater wrath of those people when the no deal brown stuff hits the fan. If I were a politician about to plunge the country into a no deal scenario, there is no way I'd do it without the explicit consent of the population.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 22, 2018 11:18:51 GMT
MP's only agreed to the first referendum because they thought there was no way that the people would vote leave, and a significant number of them have spent the last 18 months trying to stop it from happening.
If MP's can't agree on what form of Brexit we should have, maybe we could have another referendum with just various leave options on the ballot paper. Then the people could decide.
It would be very brave of either of the main political parties to support a process which resulted in us staying. They would surely feel the wrath of the 17m that voted to leave.
now they know what leave means in practice So what exactly does leave means in practice?
The great and the good of British business can't agree, so how on earth is the average man in the street meant to form a view.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 22, 2018 11:22:40 GMT
now they know what leave means in practice So what exactly does leave means in practice?
The great and the good of British business can't agree, so how on earth is the average man in the street meant to form a view.
There are only two leaves in practice - leaving with Theresa May's deal or leaving by default with no deal. If the average person in the street can't form a view then we should never have had the first referendum (that's a different argument, although I would probably agree)
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 22, 2018 11:48:16 GMT
This all getting a bit serious, I voted to remain, there I've declared my colours. At the time I was not sure who was telling the truth, sorry that's wrong I was actually sure all the players were framing things to meet their own ends - after all isn't that what politics is about if you read between the lines anyway. So unsure what was the real truth and having been in the EU for most of my adult life, I can't remember if I even voted in the 1st Ref, I was certain that if we remained then at least we would still have cover of many things like Consumer protections etc, I'm guessing they will get watered down if we leave and Uk govt are in control. Mrs Aju also couldn't make head nor tail of it and having spent most of the campaign thinking she would rather leave, she eventually agreed the status quo might be the better option when the time came to vote. So two and a half years later and we are almost at the finishing post with the hare (government and MP's) having a nice rest at that tall leafy tree, let's hope the damned tortoise (the rest of us mere mortals) catches up and makes complete sense of all this and we all win after all. (probably never gonna happen as the hare is still in control even if the tortoise wins). Hopefully the whole brexit thing is all a dream and I will all wake up tomorrow, RS will have interest rates in the 20%'s and Zopa will restore the Safeguard etc, now where did I put those tablets the doctor says I've to take 2 in the morning and two at night and all will be fine ........  |
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 22, 2018 12:19:11 GMT
So what exactly does leave means in practice?
The great and the good of British business can't agree, so how on earth is the average man in the street meant to form a view.
There are only two leaves in practice - leaving with Theresa May's deal or leaving by default with no deal. If the average person in the street can't form a view then we should never have had the first referendum (that's a different argument, although I would probably agree) According to JC there are others! Anyway, I thought we were talking about the consequences of Brexit (which are unknown) not the mechanism of achieving it.
I voted remain, and I think it is utter madness that such an important decision could be taken on the basis of a simple majority that voted. However, I accept that the majority that voted wanted to leave and the last thing I want is another referendum, lets just get on with it.
The referendum was a bit like making a major purchase (say buying a house or car). It's no good moaning after 6 months that you don't like what you have ended up with, you should have given the matter more thought before you made the decision.The brexit vote was a classic example of the old adages:
- be careful what you wish for, and
- you've made your bed now lie in it
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scc
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Post by scc on Dec 22, 2018 12:47:05 GMT
I didn't vote. I expect there will be opportunities as well as downsides which will only truly come clear in hindsight and available to very few due to tight control of information and high barriers to entry.
Past experience suggests the opportunities and downsides will be nothing like any of the narratives available in the mainstream media and yet, I doubt the conspiracy theorists have it right either. Given the way politicians are behaving, I'm strongly minded to think the whole thing is a triumph of theatre over substance and that in the end, the elites will make like bandits out of it leaving the rest of us subtly impoverished.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Dec 22, 2018 14:15:54 GMT
There are only two leaves in practice - leaving with Theresa May's deal or leaving by default with no deal. If the average person in the street can't form a view then we should never have had the first referendum (that's a different argument, although I would probably agree) According to JC there are others! Anyway, I thought we were talking about the consequences of Brexit (which are unknown) not the mechanism of achieving it.
I voted remain, and I think it is utter madness that such an important decision could be taken on the basis of a simple majority that voted. However, I accept that the majority that voted wanted to leave and the last thing I want is another referendum, lets just get on with it.
The referendum was a bit like making a major purchase (say buying a house or car). It's no good moaning after 6 months that you don't like what you have ended up with, you should have given the matter more thought before you made the decision.The brexit vote was a classic example of the old adages:
- be careful what you wish for, and
- you've made your bed now lie in it
I personally don't accept the referendum needs to stand at all. I accept the majority voted leave, but I don't accept that many people were wishing for anything remotely similar to May's deal. I also don't see any need for us to torture ourselves further by unnecessarily experiencing more consequences, if we don't actually have to follow through with it. Another referendum wouldn't be ideal but I'd much rather that then several more years of us being on the losing side of negotiating an EU trade deal whilst continuing to starve to death any element of policy other than this toxic mess. For Fishfinger's sake, Putin is insisting another referendum would be undemocratic - what more argument does anyone need? A spectator article here btw defending Putin's comments, mainly on the basis of this ludicrous comparison: "it's like if Barack Obama was prevented from going to the White House following his victory in the 2008 and instead the American people were forced to reconsider". I'm sorry, do people really buy this fatuous comparison? It's not that we dislike the result (although some do), it's the gross disparity between the advertised outcomes and what is has emerged it contains. Yes, politicians don't exactly often deliver everything they say, but in this instance we were promised 'sunlit uplands' and have been delivered one option with various elements of national self-harm and stripping of liberties, and simultaneously another option which has a price tag of £4.2bn and involves altering our diet and relying on a politician's word that there will be 'adequate food'. If we continue with the process into the next phase, then the next few years will represent an economic rock being bashed against repeatedly against our heads by 'The evil EU' as they force us to recognise person-by-person that we've given up any leverage we had and are now a supplicant. Each part of the deal will leave us worse off, each will cause outrage, and there won't be anything to be done about it. And if anyone really thinks we're going to sacrifice some poor cousin of a deal with the EU for a deal with China/USA, then they have the wrong idea about what our Government is capable of and what their intent is. The rest of the world looks on in practical disbelief (aside from Orban and Putin, great company) whilst the lunacy that is being played out degrades our national image day by day. Yes, no scenario will be 'the end of the world' but why on earth would we proceed with something on the basis that it isn't the very worst thing that could happen? If you read this far, well done you for listening to my self-indulgent tripe 
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 22, 2018 14:28:29 GMT
According to JC there are others! Anyway, I thought we were talking about the consequences of Brexit (which are unknown) not the mechanism of achieving it.
I voted remain, and I think it is utter madness that such an important decision could be taken on the basis of a simple majority that voted. However, I accept that the majority that voted wanted to leave and the last thing I want is another referendum, lets just get on with it.
The referendum was a bit like making a major purchase (say buying a house or car). It's no good moaning after 6 months that you don't like what you have ended up with, you should have given the matter more thought before you made the decision.The brexit vote was a classic example of the old adages:
- be careful what you wish for, and
- you've made your bed now lie in it
I personally don't accept the referendum needs to stand at all. I accept the majority voted leave, but I don't accept that many people were wishing for anything remotely similar to May's deal. I also don't see any need for us to torture ourselves further by unnecessarily experiencing more consequences, if we don't actually have to follow through with it. Another referendum wouldn't be ideal but I'd much rather that then several more years of us being on the losing side of negotiating an EU trade deal whilst continuing to starve to death any element of policy other than this toxic mess. For Fishfinger's sake, Putin is insisting another referendum would be undemocratic - what more argument does anyone need? A spectator article here btw defending Putin's comments, mainly on the basis of this ludicrous comparison: "it's like if Barack Obama was prevented from going to the White House following his victory in the 2008 and instead the American people were forced to reconsider". I'm sorry, do people really buy this fatuous comparison? It's not that we dislike the result (although some do), it's the gross disparity between the advertised outcomes and what is has emerged it contains. Yes, politicians don't exactly often deliver everything they say, but in this instance we were promised 'sunlit uplands' and have been delivered one option with various elements of national self-harm and stripping of liberties, and simultaneously another option which has a price tag of £4.2bn and involves altering our diet and relying on a politician's word that there will be 'adequate food'. If we continue with the process into the next phase, then the next few years will represent an economic rock being bashed against repeatedly against our heads by 'The evil EU' as they force us to recognise person-by-person that we've given up any leverage we had and are now a supplicant. Each part of the deal will leave us worse off, each will cause outrage, and there won't be anything to be done about it. And if anyone really thinks we're going to sacrifice some poor cousin of a deal with the EU for a deal with China/USA, then they have the wrong idea about what our Government is capable of and what their intent is. The rest of the world looks on in practical disbelief (aside from Orban and Putin, great company) whilst the lunacy that is being played out degrades our national image day by day. Yes, no scenario will be 'the end of the world' but why on earth would we proceed with something on the basis that it isn't the very worst thing that could happen? If you read this far, well done you for listening to my self-indulgent tripe what do you mean tripe, I like tripe, especially when its of the self indulgent kind and anyway you have as much right to self indulgent tripe as the next man woman erm ... searching for the correct term in my PC dictionary ... person, sorry MP. And another thing I'm fed up with only having a mediocre "Like" button i'd like a "Really Like" button ....
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 22, 2018 15:10:37 GMT
Yep, I'm a reader too.
The case for a second referendum is this: We narrowly voted to go on holiday As the plane is taxiing towards the runway, people notice a big hole in the wing. Should we talk about this again, or just keep quiet and try to take off?
Democracies should test "the will of the people" as often as they need to. Oh OH! Will it be best of three then? Sure, of course if staying in the EU becomes intolerable in future, or as soon as a new government wishes. Democracy does not mean having one vote and that being the result forever. That is how dictators work once they get into power. And do you really think that the Scotland Independence Referendum was a one off? Would it be undemocratic to run that again? You will see a second one of these fairly soon if we do leave the EU.
But in your heart of hearts, you know that there will be a second referendum, because it is the only way out. Or is it. In fact, there is a chance that May's dreadful deal gets through. Because the ERG group would be more mad than they even seem not to vote for it. Because it is leaving the European Union and it is a harder type of Brexit. The alternative is losing a a subsequent referendum and being left forever whining from the sidelines about a 'stab in the back' and being 'robbed of Brexit'. A position many of them will actually prefer than actually having to live with the blame for the consequences of leaving which again, in their heart of hearts, they know would be a disaster.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 22, 2018 15:57:54 GMT
There are only two leaves in practice - leaving with Theresa May's deal or leaving by default with no deal. If the average person in the street can't form a view then we should never have had the first referendum (that's a different argument, although I would probably agree) According to JC there are others! Anyway, I thought we were talking about the consequences of Brexit (which are unknown) not the mechanism of achieving it.
I voted remain, and I think it is utter madness that such an important decision could be taken on the basis of a simple majority that voted. However, I accept that the majority that voted wanted to leave and the last thing I want is another referendum, lets just get on with it.
The referendum was a bit like making a major purchase (say buying a house or car). It's no good moaning after 6 months that you don't like what you have ended up with, you should have given the matter more thought before you made the decision.The brexit vote was a classic example of the old adages:
- be careful what you wish for, and
- you've made your bed now lie in it
Except they're making me lie in it too, having decided to make the bed out of nails because that's their interpretation of the sort of bed the public wished for.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 22, 2018 19:36:07 GMT
Yep, I'm a reader too. The case for a second referendum is this: We narrowly voted to go on holiday As the plane is taxiing towards the runway, people notice a big hole in the wing. Should we talk about this again, or just keep quiet and try to take off? Neither. You get on another plane, but still go on holiday
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 22, 2018 19:45:35 GMT
Yep, I'm a reader too. The case for a second referendum is this: We narrowly voted to go on holiday As the plane is taxiing towards the runway, people notice a big hole in the wing. Should we talk about this again, or just keep quiet and try to take off? Neither. You get on another plane, but still go on holiday So, applying your revised analogy to the real world, what does that mean?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 22, 2018 20:11:19 GMT
Neither. You get on another plane, but still go on holiday So, applying your revised analogy to the real world, what does that mean? It means that you shouldn't allow your plans to be derailed just because you come across the occasional obstacle.
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Post by mrclondon on Dec 23, 2018 11:14:18 GMT
To offset the grim newpaper article I've just linked to on the recession thread, here is a much more upbeat one - demand for Welsh mozzarella is increasing, helped no doubt by current exchange rates.
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 18, 2019 11:12:55 GMT
An article in today's Telegraph that reflects the observations I made last month with regards to SME's vs multinational corporations with differing needs (and hopes) regarding trade policy.
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