|
Post by Ace on Aug 7, 2023 19:07:30 GMT
For decades the oil and gas industry paid unlimited sums to any scientist who's opinion carried any weight whatsoever to produce any contradictory evidence they could muster that might throw the slightest of doubt that climate change was real and man-made. They found some rogue, demented, or just plain greedy scientists who were prepared to proselytize themselves. This was sufficient for the powerful industry's misinformation campaigns to take effect, and sufficient to influence governments around the world (along with large slugs of corruption) not to take the necessary actions that could have prevented the situation being anywhere near as bad as it is today, or as bad as it will be tomorrow.
The evidence is now so incontrovertible, with virtually the whole of the scientific community in agreement, that there is literally no-one left who is prepared to do this. It's so certain now that even the oil and gas industry accepts it. If there was the slightest of doubt they would still be pursuing it with vigor.
Coming back to your point, it isn't "true because everyone says so". It's true because it's proven to be so to the satisfaction of the whole scientific community. Everyone says so because it's true, not the other way round.
I could understand your desire to examine the raw data yourself if there was some significant portion of the respected science community that doubted the accepted conclusions, but there isn't. On that basis you will need to prove absolutely every scientific conclusion for yourself, which you're very unlikely to have the skills to do. No one person does.
I don't understand how examining 100 years of temperature records for one place would convince you. Surely, you wouldn't be able to discount any discovery from that as a coincidence. You would need to see the effect over a large number of locations, and would then need to see that the same effect didn't occur in several millennia before the industrial revolution.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 7, 2023 20:04:01 GMT
I don't understand how examining 100 years of temperature records for one place would convince you. Surely, you wouldn't be able to discount any discovery from that as a coincidence. You would need to see the effect over a large number of locations, and would then need to see that the same effect didn't occur in several millennia before the industrial revolution. It wouldn't - my assumption would be that such a tool would allow you to change the location. But if we've gone up a degree or two over the past century or so wouldn't that be blatantly obvious in the data? Most but not all would plot as a gradient of around 1 or 2 in a 100. It would surely be that obvious? If on the other hand, we were trying to prove that average temps increased but only by 0.01 of a degree, then I would agree it would not be obvious and significant statistical processing would be necessary to prove it. But 1 or 2 degrees? Come on - it would be absolutely blatant (hence my suggestion of a site that allows "playing" with the data in the manner I suggested.
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Aug 7, 2023 20:11:55 GMT
I don't understand how examining 100 years of temperature records for one place would convince you. Surely, you wouldn't be able to discount any discovery from that as a coincidence. You would need to see the effect over a large number of locations, and would then need to see that the same effect didn't occur in several millennia before the industrial revolution. It wouldn't - my assumption would be that such a tool would allow you to change the location. But if we've gone up a degree or two over the past century or so wouldn't that be blatantly obvious in the data? Most but not all would plot as a gradient of around 1 or 2 in a 100. It would surely be that obvious? If on the other hand, we were trying to prove that average temps increased but only by 0.01 of a degree, then I would agree it would not be obvious and significant statistical processing would be necessary to prove it. But 1 or 2 degrees? Come on - it would be absolutely blatant (hence my suggestion of a site that allows "playing" with the data in the manner I suggested. Fair enough if that would be sufficient to convince you. If I doubted, which I don't, it wouldn't be sufficient to convince me. Without millennia of previous temperature records I would have no way of knowing whether the rise was common, unusual, or unique. But if you're already satisfied on that point, then fair enough. I hope you find the records you're looking for.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Aug 7, 2023 21:05:50 GMT
I don't understand how examining 100 years of temperature records for one place would convince you. Surely, you wouldn't be able to discount any discovery from that as a coincidence. You would need to see the effect over a large number of locations, and would then need to see that the same effect didn't occur in several millennia before the industrial revolution. It wouldn't - my assumption would be that such a tool would allow you to change the location. But if we've gone up a degree or two over the past century or so wouldn't that be blatantly obvious in the data? Most but not all would plot as a gradient of around 1 or 2 in a 100. It would surely be that obvious? If on the other hand, we were trying to prove that average temps increased but only by 0.01 of a degree, then I would agree it would not be obvious and significant statistical processing would be necessary to prove it. But 1 or 2 degrees? Come on - it would be absolutely blatant (hence my suggestion of a site that allows "playing" with the data in the manner I suggested. I've stood back from this since your first post along these lines, bar pointing you to one set of date to look at. I stood back because I was basically incredulous. It is called GLOBAL warming and CLIMATE change for a reason. Looking at the temperature at ONE place on ONE day of the year for 100 years - which was your proposal first time round and second time - and thinking that would give you some insight is just crazy. What if it did show increasing temperature over time - would that demonstrate global warming ? No of course it wouldn't. If it didn't show that, would that invalidate global warming theory ? No, of course it wouldn't. Its ludicrous. One location on one date over 100 years is 100 data points. Its a nothing. Make that 10 different locations. Not just your back garden, but your friends up the road and some of their friends. That is still only 1000 data points. For individual locations, on a specific day. That is called "weather" variation, not global warning and climate change. And heh, with global warming and climate change, some places are probably going to get colder and wetter. Better make sure you don't pick those as your specially self selected locations. So now you are beginning to concede that perhaps that isn't sound and so not what you meant. So it needs to be over many places and dates. Oh, look, that's precisely what scientists have been doing for the last couple of decades, but churning through huge amounts of data, from large number of places, with more computing power than you will ever be able to muster. Here you go, here is some data that has been visually rendered: climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/ Its from NASA. Its not about a single location (Cape Canaveral anyone?), but rather its on global temperatures. Gives quite an interesting graphic showing the temperatures around the globe from around 1880. No doubt some of it has to be by extrapolation since there wouldn't have been measuring stations at every possible location on the planet. I've done no personal checks on whether they have used 'accurate' data, nor whether their extrapolations are valid. But since there are literally 10's of thousands of people working in this domain peer reviewing work, strangely I'm not sure I can meaningfully contribute to that analysis. However, I'm sure if you look at 100 years worth of temperature measurements from Greenwich for precisely March 15th - or perhaps the 16th would be better - you'll be in a good position to either confirm or repudiate it. There was another one I saw today/yesterday about artic/Antarctic ice area (actually it was in the economist today I read it). There is shed loads of this stuff out there. But since I'm not in a position to go measure the ice myself I'll obviously disregard it - its bound to be bogus.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 7, 2023 21:22:38 GMT
It wouldn't - my assumption would be that such a tool would allow you to change the location. But if we've gone up a degree or two over the past century or so wouldn't that be blatantly obvious in the data? Most but not all would plot as a gradient of around 1 or 2 in a 100. It would surely be that obvious? If on the other hand, we were trying to prove that average temps increased but only by 0.01 of a degree, then I would agree it would not be obvious and significant statistical processing would be necessary to prove it. But 1 or 2 degrees? Come on - it would be absolutely blatant (hence my suggestion of a site that allows "playing" with the data in the manner I suggested. I've stood back from this since your first post along these lines, bar pointing you to one set of date to look at. I stood back because I was basically incredulous. It is called GLOBAL warming and CLIMATE change for a reason. Looking at the temperature at ONE place on ONE day of the year for 100 years - which was your proposal first time round and second time - and thinking that would give you some insight is just crazy. <snip> Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places?
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Aug 7, 2023 23:01:54 GMT
I've stood back from this since your first post along these lines, bar pointing you to one set of date to look at. I stood back because I was basically incredulous. It is called GLOBAL warming and CLIMATE change for a reason. Looking at the temperature at ONE place on ONE day of the year for 100 years - which was your proposal first time round and second time - and thinking that would give you some insight is just crazy. <snip> Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places? If you view the Climate Time Machine sequence for Global Temperature, in bracknellboy's link, running it through from 1884 to 2022, I think you'll see exactly that effect... yet not just in the UK but right around the globe.
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Aug 7, 2023 23:21:15 GMT
I cannot see how we can persuade Homo Sapiens that an invisible gas produced by human activities is having a detrimental effect on the planet, and we should modify our behaviour, when large numbers of the species consider it perfectly acceptable to throw their visible rubbish out of the car window/house/flat/business.
And yet, surprisingly, there is a precedent for this and it has been successful. Remember the hole in the ozone layer and the serious amount of consternation that was generating a few decades ago? You never hear of it these days, because Homo Sapiens was persuaded to alter its behaviour. As a result, global warming has been slowed a little and the 'hole' is now much healthier: "The ozone layer is on track to recover within four decades".
|
|
aj
Member of DD Central
Posts: 348
Likes: 465
|
Post by aj on Aug 8, 2023 8:27:02 GMT
I've stood back from this since your first post along these lines, bar pointing you to one set of date to look at. I stood back because I was basically incredulous. It is called GLOBAL warming and CLIMATE change for a reason. Looking at the temperature at ONE place on ONE day of the year for 100 years - which was your proposal first time round and second time - and thinking that would give you some insight is just crazy. <snip> Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places? Just to throw in a bit of data: www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-climate-averages/Pick a random weather station (location) in the above link. Look at the min/max temperature for a random month with the 'climate period' set to 1991-2020. Change the 'climate period' back to 1961-1990. and that min/max temperature will be about a degree colder. It's completely unscientific and probably not the exact set of data you want but the met office is showing a rise of about a degree over the last 30 years in all the selected places I chose. Can you find a weather station that is showing colder monthly temperatures 30 years ago?
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 8, 2023 11:49:21 GMT
Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places? If you view the Climate Time Machine sequence for Global Temperature, in bracknellboy 's link, running it through from 1884 to 2022, I think you'll see exactly that effect... yet not just in the UK but right around the globe. I think one First Class "thicky" is going to have to tell another one how to do that? In particular I couldn't see "Climate Time Machine sequence" ? You're talking about this link ? climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 8, 2023 12:09:29 GMT
Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places? Just to throw in a bit of data: www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-climate-averages/Pick a random weather station (location) in the above link. Look at the min/max temperature for a random month with the 'climate period' set to 1991-2020. Change the 'climate period' back to 1961-1990. and that min/max temperature will be about a degree colder. It's completely unscientific and probably not the exact set of data you want but the met office is showing a rise of about a degree over the last 30 years in all the selected places I chose. Can you find a weather station that is showing colder monthly temperatures 30 years ago? Thanks for looking and yes its a bit simpler than I was hoping for. I'd also rather use random times (the same random time through the years) rather than local min/maxima although accept both should likely show the dramatic 1 or 2 degree increase.
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Aug 8, 2023 12:44:48 GMT
If you view the Climate Time Machine sequence for Global Temperature, in bracknellboy 's link, running it through from 1884 to 2022, I think you'll see exactly that effect... yet not just in the UK but right around the globe. I think one First Class "thicky" is going to have to tell another one how to do that? In particular I couldn't see "Climate Time Machine sequence" ? You're talking about this link ? climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/ Yes. Specifically it's climate.nasa.gov/interactives/climate-time-machine/ and select the Global Temperature topic. You can then step through year by year.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 8, 2023 13:29:45 GMT
Thanks and I appreciate your efforts but this graphic has been set up to prove a point hasn't it? It isn't a tool to allow easy navigation through the raw data. I'm starting to feel an opportunity here. So long as I pretend I'm fully in the "non denier" camp, I could set up a site with that data and some nice navigation tools then sell the ads. Or something....
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Aug 8, 2023 13:45:27 GMT
Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places? Just to throw in a bit of data: www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-climate-averages/Pick a random weather station (location) in the above link. Look at the min/max temperature for a random month with the 'climate period' set to 1991-2020. Change the 'climate period' back to 1961-1990. and that min/max temperature will be about a degree colder. It's completely unscientific and probably not the exact set of data you want but the met office is showing a rise of about a degree over the last 30 years in all the selected places I chose. Can you find a weather station that is showing colder monthly temperatures 30 years ago? and that is essentially looking likethe same data set or very similar from met office that I posted to a little while back, albeit containing a bit more stuff: p2pindependentforum.com/post/478250which posted this link www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/historic-station-dataBut apparently not useful as you can't look at a specific day in every year. Like that would be massively illuminating.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Aug 8, 2023 14:14:57 GMT
I've stood back from this since your first post along these lines, bar pointing you to one set of date to look at. I stood back because I was basically incredulous. It is called GLOBAL warming and CLIMATE change for a reason. Looking at the temperature at ONE place on ONE day of the year for 100 years - which was your proposal first time round and second time - and thinking that would give you some insight is just crazy. <snip> Ignoring for now your "pleasant" manner, wouldn't you expect the temperature to go up by a degree or two in most of the selected places?On a specific day of the year ? No, I probably wouldn't. At least not in a way that would be statistically meaningful. Why? Because of WEATHER. There is greater variation in day to day temperatures due to weather than there would be year to year variation for a given specific day of the year over even quite an extended period. Today 8th August its 18 oC (max) and hissing down with rain where I am. Tomorrow its forecast to be 23 oC and sunny and the day after that 25 oC (max) and sunny. That's a change of 7 oC in 3 days - actually 48 hours. Should I expect that last year the 8th August was also 7oC colder than the 10th August ? No, because its driven by weather, not the seasonal change (over 3 days.....), nor by climate change. I could just as well expect it was inverted i.e. 7oC hotter, or 8 oC colder, or indeed the same temperature, as 10th August that year. Meteorological data for a single location on a single day of the year even over say 100 years is a largely uninteresting and unilluminating thing I would suggest. The noise in the data due to weather is almost certainly going to outweigh the trend, and any trend one might discern has a good chance of being an entirely spurious correlation. There are of course places in the world where this may well not be quite so true, but in a place like the UK it certainly is likely to be. There may a handful of special places in the world where it might be mildly interesting e.g. where there are very stable weather patterns and they represent planetary extremes, but even then I'd suggest a specific day of the year is not terribly helpful. Of course if you start looking at monthly max/min temps, then that starts to change. Because then each of your data points is itself driven by a data pool, and the effects of day to day weather patterns are smoothed. Expand that to be multiple points etc. across a region, and then regions across.....
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Aug 8, 2023 17:33:42 GMT
It is. If nobody scientifically important said so you wouldn't believe it.
Science or at least scientists have been wrong many times before.
But that's how science progresses! Someone, somewhere thinks that the current scientific concensus about a particular issue is wrong and sets out to prove it's wrong - if successful, science moves on and a new concensus forms until someone else comes along and proves the new theory wrong... The problem I have with climate change is that it is a highly charged political problem. There are similarities politically with Covid because both require incredibly far reaching political decisions. Mass house arrest ("lockdown"), huge transport, eneregy and recycling changes etc. That doesn't mean I disagree with it, but I'd much rather scientists stick to their job of being scientists rather than attempting to influence how we should live - that's for us and our proxies (politicians) to decide based upon scientific evidence.
The problem is that humans (and especially politicians) have a reluctance to change if that change is "uncomfortable". Look at how easy it is to postpone decisions which might result in something unpopular with the population in general, not to mention the insidious lobbying from commercial interests that might be affected. It's rare that any politician makes a decision based upon scientific evidence! The theory of human activity affecting global climate has been debated for decades, with warnings from the scientists of the growing body of evidence to prove the theory and the catastrophic impact if human behaviour is left uncontrolled. After decades to trying to warn of the dangers and being ignored, why would you be surprised if scientists become more vocal and refuse to "stick to their job of being scientists rather than attempting to influence how we should live"? Of the two climate change questions (A: is the climate changing in the way it is said? and B: is it caused by negative manmade intervention?) you would think A would be the easiest to prove. Why then is there no site I can go to that provides a nice user interface for anyone to play with the data without having to write their own software. I asked this on here before and got some links but none of them would answer even basic questions. e.g. For a given place and time of year, graph the temperature at that time of day over the past 100 years and give me the basic stats (bounds, mean, variance etc). e.g. Y axis is temperature. X axis are discrete days e.g. 1950 3 March 7pm, 1951 3 March 7pm, 1952.....etc. Allow people to play like that to get a feel for it.
There appears to be nothing.Err - NOAA and the Met Office have vast amounts of data monitoring environmental variables. In the 1980s, my partner worked for the International Energy Agency on a project for sulphur dioxide transport in the atmosphere so I'm well aware of the data - I have a collection of meteorological records for recording stations in the UK going back to the 19th Century which is exactly what you're asking for. (I used them for something much more mundane - to select the best retirement location!) But studying the raw meteorological records won't be of much help - climate change is too subtle because the trends are overwhelmed by "weather" - that's the day-by-day, hour-by-hour effects of an extremely complex atmosphere. Identifying climate changes within the variability of the weather data demands an immense research effort with vast amounts of data and computational resources. And then there's the reliability of the data over time - you mentioned 100 years: it was an American colleague who brought me abruptly to a halt with his comment that any recording station cannot be relied upon to be consistent over this length of time simply because the surroundings of the recording equipment will have changed - stations that were originally in a small town, he used the example of Phoenix Arizona, are now in the centre of a giant metropolis with their own unique climate. I'd guess that only the data from offshore lighthouses would give a consistent record across decades. But don't let me dissuade you from looking - try the Met Office's Hadley Centre. your post is a bit here and there.. i agree in principle ....but.. what exactly are you saying... its all wishy washy.. ??
|
|