|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Aug 8, 2023 20:36:09 GMT
we need less oil do we... how about gas? will we benefit from less gas?.. I've decided to accept the advice not to feed the troll. good call. I was about to advise exactly that.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707 
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 8, 2023 20:45:10 GMT
I've decided to accept the advice not to feed the troll. good call. I was about to advise exactly that. He says this to the OP on page 63 of one of the most popular threads on this forum having posted many, many times on it. Bit late to say that I would say!
|
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Aug 8, 2023 21:09:20 GMT
good call. I was about to advise exactly that. He says this to the OP on page 63 of one of the most popular threads on this forum having posted many, many times on it. Bit late to say that I would say! Better late than never. Sorry my troll detector isn't as tuned as your's. I recall the same person totally falling to notice factual corrections from multiple posters on his complete misunderstanding of smart meters now. It's only now that I look back that I realise that it's most unlikely that anyone was quite that hard of thinking. Anyway, problem solved now.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 8, 2023 21:18:47 GMT
He says this to the OP on page 63 of one of the most popular threads on this forum having posted many, many times on it. Bit late to say that I would say! Better late than never. Sorry my troll detector isn't as tuned as your's. I recall the same person totally falling to notice factual corrections from multiple posters on his complete misunderstanding of smart meters now. It's only now that I look back that I realise that it's most unlikely that anyone was quite that hard of thinking. Anyway, problem solved now. The forum has almost as many trolls as it has shills. Good luck in your continued p2p investments.
|
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Aug 8, 2023 23:45:02 GMT
I've decided to accept the advice not to feed the troll. good call. I was about to advise exactly that. Probably sensible. You can lead a horse to water... Those concerned about mankind's impact on the climate have provided many good, strong scientific links in the past few pages of this thread, from such august bodies as NASA, the Met Office and NAOO. Have the deniers here provided one single credible scientific source that supports their stance yet? The overwhelming scientific evidence, agreed by the overwhelming number of respected scientists, shows that the main cause of global warming is man-made. It would be crazy to believe that the few fruit-loops still in the climate change denier camp are correct just because they say they are. ^^This. The opposing viewpoint might be more respected if they could provide some credible counter-evidence. Instead, they put their 'case' in capital letters, often packaged up in some rudeness or other, and somehow imagine that conveys the gravitas they seek. They do indeed believe they are correct just because they say they are.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on Aug 9, 2023 7:47:40 GMT
Maybe you have an opinion on how this country can lower its electricity cost? based on the FACT that electricity cost is linked to the cost of gas.. (burning gas produces electricity) maybe its a labour policy of building wind turbines and producing cheap electricity for everyone... i would really be interested in hearing how wind turbine electricity.. linked to spot pricing with gas prices would lower the prices.... IT WILL NOT... WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF.. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MANAGES THE COST OF LECCY... LOOK AT THE ENERGY SUPPLIERS PROFITS.. then link it to global warming.. simple. We consume approximately as much gas in our homes (heating and cooking) as we do to produce electricity. It's more than we consume industrially. Our housing stock is decrepit. So I'd suggest a concerted effort to improve insulation would reduce domestic natural gas demand materially, which would reduce consumption, which would reduce gas prices, which would reduce electricity prices. I happen to agree with you (just without the anger). Oil and gas will be needed going forwards. But that is not to say that steps can't be taken to reduce consumption.
|
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Aug 9, 2023 8:39:58 GMT
Maybe you have an opinion on how this country can lower its electricity cost? based on the FACT that electricity cost is linked to the cost of gas.. (burning gas produces electricity) maybe its a labour policy of building wind turbines and producing cheap electricity for everyone... i would really be interested in hearing how wind turbine electricity.. linked to spot pricing with gas prices would lower the prices.... IT WILL NOT... WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF.. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MANAGES THE COST OF LECCY... LOOK AT THE ENERGY SUPPLIERS PROFITS.. then link it to global warming.. simple. We consume approximately as much gas in our homes (heating and cooking) as we do to produce electricity. It's more than we consume industrially. Our housing stock is decrepit. So I'd suggest a concerted effort to improve insulation would reduce domestic natural gas demand materially, which would reduce consumption, which would reduce gas prices, which would reduce electricity prices. I happen to agree with you (just without the anger). Oil and gas will be needed going forwards. But that is not to say that steps can't be taken to reduce consumption. But as has been pointed out to the OP before, but clearly ignored per that post, the direct link between electricity cost and gas cost in the UK is a false, market regulator manufactured one. Or rather, the link between electricity cost and the highest marginal supply cost at any given time is a market regulator created one. Which when gas prices were going through the roof and we were in winter, the electricity price was being driven by the gas price. It doesn't have to be that way, and has created a situation creating significantly elevated margins for renewables for example. And I'm pretty sure was putting us in an unfavourable position relative to the continent for example. So yes, all the stuff about reducing dependency on gas is needed, but there is some fundamental reform of the market regulation/pricing structure that is needed also.
|
|
eeyore
Member of DD Central
Posts: 799
Likes: 806
|
Post by eeyore on Aug 9, 2023 9:05:21 GMT
Maybe you have an opinion on how this country can lower its electricity cost? based on the FACT that electricity cost is linked to the cost of gas.. (burning gas produces electricity) maybe its a labour policy of building wind turbines and producing cheap electricity for everyone... i would really be interested in hearing how wind turbine electricity.. linked to spot pricing with gas prices would lower the prices.... IT WILL NOT... WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF.. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MANAGES THE COST OF LECCY... LOOK AT THE ENERGY SUPPLIERS PROFITS.. then link it to global warming.. simple. We consume approximately as much gas in our homes (heating and cooking) as we do to produce electricity. It's more than we consume industrially. Our housing stock is decrepit. So I'd suggest a concerted effort to improve insulation would reduce domestic natural gas demand materially, which would reduce consumption, which would reduce gas prices, which would reduce electricity prices. I happen to agree with you (just without the anger). Oil and gas will be needed going forwards. But that is not to say that steps can't be taken to reduce consumption. Obviously - in the short term, but not necessarily long term. Look at how our dependence on coal has diminished - I remember Lord Robens' (then chairman of the NCB) famous comment that "electricity is coal by wire" - not now it isn't! The solution is merely to find alternatives just as we did with coal...
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 4,590
Likes: 2,623
|
Post by keitha on Aug 9, 2023 13:22:38 GMT
I've been doing a little maths, during the coldest spell of last year my heating ran 12 hours a day, but because of the low flow temperature I use, the boiler was using around 7kWh worth of gas so say 85kWh per day. now assuming my boiler is 90% efficient ( Which is good ) the the real heat demand of the house was 76.5kWh a day.
Running a heat pump ( Air source ) at a realistic COP of 2.5 means that I would use 30kWh of electricity. one of the issues with heat pumps is the work better with warmer air so at say 10 degrees you get a COP of 4, at 0 3, at -5 or so 2, and -15 1
the problem is cost
at current prices
85kWh of gas will cost about £6.50
30kWh of electricity £9 on Standard tariff, 2.50 a day extra.
the other thing is that heat pumps work differently to a gas boiler you can't run them an hour in the morning and 2 at night you need to have them running most of the time which is why my boiler flow temperature is low as I have it simulating a heat pump.
the reality is I need at most a 4-5kWh output heat pump, yet when I asked for quotes I was being quotes for 12 or 15kW input ie something that has an output akin to what my 28kW boiler can produce flat out.
BTW if your flash condensing boiler is running at 60 degrees plus flow temperature it is not likely to be condensing and so will be less efficient
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 9, 2023 16:01:42 GMT
I've been doing a little maths, during the coldest spell of last year my heating ran 12 hours a day, but because of the low flow temperature I use, the boiler was using around 7kWh worth of gas so say 85kWh per day. now assuming my boiler is 90% efficient ( Which is good ) the the real heat demand of the house was 76.5kWh a day. Running a heat pump ( Air source ) at a realistic COP of 2.5 means that I would use 30kWh of electricity. one of the issues with heat pumps is the work better with warmer air so at say 10 degrees you get a COP of 4, at 0 3, at -5 or so 2, and -15 1 the problem is cost at current prices 85kWh of gas will cost about £6.50 30kWh of electricity £9 on Standard tariff, 2.50 a day extra. the other thing is that heat pumps work differently to a gas boiler you can't run them an hour in the morning and 2 at night you need to have them running most of the time which is why my boiler flow temperature is low as I have it simulating a heat pump. the reality is I need at most a 4-5kWh output heat pump, yet when I asked for quotes I was being quotes for 12 or 15kW input ie something that has an output akin to what my 28kW boiler can produce flat out. BTW if your flash condensing boiler is running at 60 degrees plus flow temperature it is not likely to be condensing and so will be less efficient I wonder why folk don't consider air to air heat pumps. Since they are sold in billions of units around the world, the leading brands are typically highly reliable and well tuned. They are also considerably more efficient than UK style air to water systems. The ECOP of some units I was looking at are above 6. Use it in the cool summer evenings for a bit of extra heat and its virtually free. Further, unlike air to water systems they are almost instant on instant off so no waiting hours for things to heat up and no heating your house when you're out. They're also rather efficient at delivering cool air for the couple of weeks in the year the temperatures go over 30 - likely to happen more often if you believe all you read. I'm not sure they are sufficient for whole house heating, but for times when you just want one or two rooms warm/cool they would appear to be a better solution. They won't do hot water either of course. The cost is around £500 per wall mounted / outdoor pair.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 4,590
Likes: 2,623
|
Post by keitha on Aug 9, 2023 16:34:10 GMT
it's on my list of things to try.
|
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Aug 10, 2023 19:04:27 GMT
Maybe you have an opinion on how this country can lower its electricity cost? based on the FACT that electricity cost is linked to the cost of gas.. (burning gas produces electricity) maybe its a labour policy of building wind turbines and producing cheap electricity for everyone... i would really be interested in hearing how wind turbine electricity.. linked to spot pricing with gas prices would lower the prices.... IT WILL NOT... WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF.. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MANAGES THE COST OF LECCY... LOOK AT THE ENERGY SUPPLIERS PROFITS.. then link it to global warming.. simple. We consume approximately as much gas in our homes (heating and cooking) as we do to produce electricity. It's more than we consume industrially. Our housing stock is decrepit. So I'd suggest a concerted effort to improve insulation would reduce domestic natural gas demand materially, which would reduce consumption, which would reduce gas prices, which would reduce electricity prices. I happen to agree with you (just without the anger). Oil and gas will be needed going forwards. But that is not to say that steps can't be taken to reduce consumption. Apologies for the anger bit.. but its nice to read a coherent post that seems to see the BS as i do. or at least on similar lines.
|
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Aug 10, 2023 19:10:49 GMT
He says this to the OP on page 63 of one of the most popular threads on this forum having posted many, many times on it. Bit late to say that I would say! Better late than never. Sorry my troll detector isn't as tuned as your's. I recall the same person totally falling to notice factual corrections from multiple posters on his complete misunderstanding of smart meters now. It's only now that I look back that I realise that it's most unlikely that anyone was quite that hard of thinking. Anyway, problem solved now. do some research on smart meters ... they are not installed meters, the vast majority are internet activated meters, connected to your supplier...
|
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Aug 10, 2023 19:14:21 GMT
www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/historical-gas-data-gas-production-and-consumption-and-fuel-inputWe consume approximately as much gas in our homes (heating and cooking) as we do to produce electricity. It's more than we consume industrially. Our housing stock is decrepit. So I'd suggest a concerted effort to improve insulation would reduce domestic natural gas demand materially, which would reduce consumption, which would reduce gas prices, which would reduce electricity prices. I happen to agree with you (just without the anger). Oil and gas will be needed going forwards. But that is not to say that steps can't be taken to reduce consumption. But as has been pointed out to the OP before, but clearly ignored per that post, the direct link between electricity cost and gas cost in the UK is a false, market regulator manufactured one. Or rather, the link between electricity cost and the highest marginal supply cost at any given time is a market regulator created one. Which when gas prices were going through the roof and we were in winter, the electricity price was being driven by the gas price. It doesn't have to be that way, and has created a situation creating significantly elevated margins for renewables for example. And I'm pretty sure was putting us in an unfavourable position relative to the continent for example. So yes, all the stuff about reducing dependency on gas is needed, but there is some fundamental reform of the market regulation/pricing structure that is needed also. no its not. "The cost of electricity tracks the cost of gas because gas generation sets the marginal wholesale price. The wholesale price of electricity is set by the cost of producing the last unit of electricity needed to meet demand. This is nearly always a gas power plant with high marginal costs.30 Mar 2023" www.nesta.org.uk/blog/the-electricity-to-gas-price-ratio-explained-how-a-green-ratio-would-make-bills-cheaper-and-greener/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20electricity%20tracks,plant%20with%20high%20marginal%20costs. Left wing BS.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 2,983
|
Post by michaelc on Aug 10, 2023 19:37:48 GMT
I've been doing a little maths, during the coldest spell of last year my heating ran 12 hours a day, but because of the low flow temperature I use, the boiler was using around 7kWh worth of gas so say 85kWh per day. now assuming my boiler is 90% efficient ( Which is good ) the the real heat demand of the house was 76.5kWh a day. Running a heat pump ( Air source ) at a realistic COP of 2.5 means that I would use 30kWh of electricity. one of the issues with heat pumps is the work better with warmer air so at say 10 degrees you get a COP of 4, at 0 3, at -5 or so 2, and -15 1 the problem is cost at current prices 85kWh of gas will cost about £6.50 30kWh of electricity £9 on Standard tariff, 2.50 a day extra. the other thing is that heat pumps work differently to a gas boiler you can't run them an hour in the morning and 2 at night you need to have them running most of the time which is why my boiler flow temperature is low as I have it simulating a heat pump. the reality is I need at most a 4-5kWh output heat pump, yet when I asked for quotes I was being quotes for 12 or 15kW input ie something that has an output akin to what my 28kW boiler can produce flat out. BTW if your flash condensing boiler is running at 60 degrees plus flow temperature it is not likely to be condensing and so will be less efficient I wonder why folk don't consider air to air heat pumps. Since they are sold in billions of units around the world, the leading brands are typically highly reliable and well tuned. They are also considerably more efficient than UK style air to water systems. The ECOP of some units I was looking at are above 6. Use it in the cool summer evenings for a bit of extra heat and its virtually free. Further, unlike air to water systems they are almost instant on instant off so no waiting hours for things to heat up and no heating your house when you're out. They're also rather efficient at delivering cool air for the couple of weeks in the year the temperatures go over 30 - likely to happen more often if you believe all you read. I'm not sure they are sufficient for whole house heating, but for times when you just want one or two rooms warm/cool they would appear to be a better solution. They won't do hot water either of course. The cost is around £500 per wall mounted / outdoor pair. And I must own up - that's exactly what I've installed in my house. So far 4 inside units and 2 out.
|
|
