mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 8, 2020 18:32:00 GMT
I don't actually see anything wrong with those pictures. From the regulations valid exceptions for leaving home include (c) to take exercise outside (d) to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation
As long as they keep some distance from strangers, the risk of getting infected while walking outdoors is vanishingly small.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 8, 2020 18:32:59 GMT
I think you are allowed to leave home for exercise, which is what most of the people appear to be doing. Small groups who look well seperated, so probably not the end of the world.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 8, 2020 18:40:10 GMT
To be honest most people could take the virus in their stride and get over it in acouple of days. Its only the oldand vulnerable that should lockdown. This is going on infinitum until the vulnerable realise that the NHS is not their to save them (did it ever ?) So what do you propose the NHS should do when it reaches its capacity? Just let people die without care? Greater Manchester hospitals have already suspended non-urgent care.
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Post by stevepn on Nov 8, 2020 20:08:19 GMT
To be honest most people could take the virus in their stride and get over it in acouple of days. Its only the oldand vulnerable that should lockdown. This is going on infinitum until the vulnerable realise that the NHS is not their to save them (did it ever ?) So what do you propose the NHS should do when it reaches its capacity? Just let people die without care? Greater Manchester hospitals have already suspended non-urgent care. There are people dying from cancer and other illnesses who weren't treated as they should have been because the hospitals are allegedly full of sick and dying <covid> patients.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 8, 2020 21:00:07 GMT
To be honest most people could take the virus in their stride and get over it in acouple of days. Its only the oldand vulnerable that should lockdown. This is going on infinitum until the vulnerable realise that the NHS is not their to save them (did it ever ?) It's not only old people taking up hospital beds due to covid. As an older person I'm quite willing to be careful and ride it out. Of course older people in care homes and hospitals are inevitably interacting with people who may be infected over which they have no control. Also it is not clear how much health damage is being done to younger people who may not die and do not necessarily have very severe symptoms, but could be a real burden to the health service in the future. Then you have the people taken ill or having accidents or needing other treatment for non-covid reasons who may not be able to get treatment if the hospitals are full. I don't think any sort of lockdown would be necessary if people were just being sensible (not necessarily following any particular rules, just understanding the risks and doing what is obviously sensible).
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 8, 2020 21:18:54 GMT
So what do you propose the NHS should do when it reaches its capacity? Just let people die without care? Greater Manchester hospitals have already suspended non-urgent care. There are people dying from cancer and other illnesses who weren't treated as they should have been because the hospitals are allegedly full of sick and dying <covid> patients. Exactly. (Well, except the hospitals weren't "allegedly" full, they were full for real. And of Covid-19 patients, not of "flu" that's a different virus.) So if you let the virus spread freely the hospitals will get full again, and more people will die of all illnesses because they can't get treatment. It's not rocket science.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Nov 9, 2020 8:32:58 GMT
People are already dying . Corona Virus accelerates it. The sooner we realise we are going to die (eventually) the better. Do you really think that you deserve to be put on a ventilator at the age of seventy plus? The recuperation is enough to incapacitate you for the rest of your (unnatural) life and make a loving burden for the rest of your family. The hospitals are full of the weak,who arrived there first. The rest should be turned away to die or survive at home. Because we have the excuse of 'work' there's no one around to help them through their last days unless you can afford to take time off work. Its a hard truth but we have off loaded the responsibiity of care (for children and the elderly) for the easier option of 'work' and monetary wealth. Its turned around and bitten us.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 9, 2020 8:48:53 GMT
People are already dying . Corona Virus accelerates it. The sooner we realise we are going to die (eventually) the better. Do you really think that you deserve to be put on a ventilator at the age of seventy plus? The recuperation is enough to incapacitate you for the rest of your (unnatural) life and make a loving burden for the rest of your family. The hospitals are full of the weak,who arrived there first. The rest should be turned away to die or survive at home. Because we have the excuse of 'work' there's no one around to help them through their last days unless you can afford to take time off work. Its a hard truth but we have off loaded the responsibiity of care (for children and the elderly) for the easier option of 'work' and monetary wealth. Its turned around and bitten us. A lot of people 70+ are fit and still working! They are not just sitting around waiting to die or needing (or even wanting) to be looked after by family. I don't know your experiences of people over 70 but it doesn't seem to match mine.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 9, 2020 10:03:40 GMT
To be honest most people could take the virus in their stride and get over it in acouple of days. Its only the oldand vulnerable that should lockdown. This is going on infinitum until the vulnerable realise that the NHS is not their to save them (did it ever ?) The logical conclusion of your last few posts, taken together, seems to be that there is no point in assisting the vulnerable or elderly at all. In which case regardless of Covid we might as well get rid of medical services all together. Coming back to the comments about the "vulnerable" and C19 specifically. Take an example. Asthma is a pre-condition that national authorities consider make you vulnerable to the effects of C19. Asthmatics in the normal course of events lead very normal and productive lives. There are about 5m recognised asthmatics* in the UK.
*Yes only a portion of those have been put into the 'extremely vulnerable' group (which was a total group of around 2.2m as I recall) and therefore shielded. However the remainder do fall into the same category as over 70's in terms of being viewed as 'clinically vulnerable'.
That's just one group of those who are "vulnerable".
And as others have noted, what is not very clear at the moment is long term effects even on those who have had mild symptoms. there is evidence that it may be far from benign for many.
Edited: I've modified this post. Undoubtedly authorities consider asthma to make you higher risk, (the NHS consider severe asthma to put in the extremely vulnerable, category and non severe to be 'clinically vulnerable' (same as > 70 yr old)). However, whether in practise it is actually turning out that way is not clear cut.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 9, 2020 10:16:51 GMT
People are already dying . Corona Virus accelerates it. The sooner we realise we are going to die (eventually) the better. Do you really think that you deserve to be put on a ventilator at the age of seventy plus? The recuperation is enough to incapacitate you for the rest of your (unnatural) life and make a loving burden for the rest of your family. The hospitals are full of the weak,who arrived there first. The rest should be turned away to die or survive at home. Because we have the excuse of 'work' there's no one around to help them through their last days unless you can afford to take time off work. Its a hard truth but we have off loaded the responsibiity of care (for children and the elderly) for the easier option of 'work' and monetary wealth. Its turned around and bitten us. I tend to like your posts as they are sometimes left of field and make me think. In fact without them, this thread and others would be in danger of petering out IMO. To the bit in bold, I do think they are just as deserving as anyone else. Reminds me of my wife who values her children's lives higher than her own (and certainly higher than mine). I've always disagreed believing everyone in the family is just as important. I don't think its something one can argue though - it comes down to belief.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Nov 9, 2020 11:48:46 GMT
People are already dying . Corona Virus accelerates it. The sooner we realise we are going to die (eventually) the better. Do you really think that you deserve to be put on a ventilator at the age of seventy plus? The recuperation is enough to incapacitate you for the rest of your (unnatural) life and make a loving burden for the rest of your family. The hospitals are full of the weak,who arrived there first. The rest should be turned away to die or survive at home. Because we have the excuse of 'work' there's no one around to help them through their last days unless you can afford to take time off work. Its a hard truth but we have off loaded the responsibiity of care (for children and the elderly) for the easier option of 'work' and monetary wealth. Its turned around and bitten us. How old are you? Your parents?
I'm 70. My expectation of life is about 15-20 years. I'd thank you not to be so cavalier with my wellbeing
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Nov 9, 2020 11:53:07 GMT
Just announced: Pfizer vaccine 90% effective!!
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 9, 2020 11:56:56 GMT
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Nov 9, 2020 11:58:11 GMT
Already have
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james100
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Post by james100 on Nov 9, 2020 11:58:51 GMT
People are already dying . Corona Virus accelerates it. The sooner we realise we are going to die (eventually) the better. Do you really think that you deserve to be put on a ventilator at the age of seventy plus? The recuperation is enough to incapacitate you for the rest of your (unnatural) life and make a loving burden for the rest of your family. The hospitals are full of the weak,who arrived there first. The rest should be turned away to die or survive at home. Because we have the excuse of 'work' there's no one around to help them through their last days unless you can afford to take time off work. Its a hard truth but we have off loaded the responsibiity of care (for children and the elderly) for the easier option of 'work' and monetary wealth. Its turned around and bitten us. Agree with this in part, but not the conclusion (or some of the brutality ). I don't think that offloading the responsibility of care has bitten us in itself; it's the offloading of care and not adequately funding or developing sufficient capacity for alternative provision. And really poor expectation management about division of responsibility for that care as individual vs state. People obsessively trying to dodge paying the financial price yet claiming entitlement to the service. Everyone's a socialist until the bill comes around etc. Of course there will be some 70 + people or even 80 + people who are fit and independent. But I don't see it as contentious to suggest that in a situation with limited resources, a human with life expectancy of, say, 35 years plus dependents would be prioritized over someone with life expectancy of 10 years plus zero dependents.
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