michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Dec 12, 2021 16:50:36 GMT
They could chose to interview a couple scientists and get quotes from them about the situation. The minister for example, said "I can now confirm there are hospitalised cases of omicron....". They could chose to ask how many cases, how many in ICU and how many on Oxygen. But no, they leave it at that in order to worry people into having their booster. I'd rather get the truth from say the bbc and not be forced into finding scientists and medics who I consider reasonably unbiased (e.g. www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2vI4XczqZ8 ) Hi all, thought I'd drop by to see what the chat is here about all of this. Firstly, I don't always agree with Michael, but I came here to say something similar. Reading the front page of BBC news this morning (morning where I am), I felt somewhat propagandised towards (is that a word?). It felt far too much to me like a public health service announcement than the actual truth. I appreciate it's probably with good intent at heart (get a booster everyone), but it does make a mockery of the 'news'. Anyway... I think the Govt are a bit screwed with this aren't they? They have what appears to be a mild/very mild variant which is super-transmissive/evasive. They have zero time to sit back and analyse it, and have to decide basically now whether to impose even more restrictions. There's a small chance of a big catastrophe if for some reason the data from SA is misleading (e.g. maybe their beta immunity protected them more?), so probably the right thing to do is to be cautious and put in more restrictions. However, if they do that, and (more than likely) it proves to be as mild as in SA then that's fuel to the fire for all the anti-vaxxers and a general feeling of "well that was a waste of time - thanks!" from everyone else. If they don't do that however then it might work out alright, but if the variant is even slightly less mild than SA it could still amount to overwhelming the NHS. Tough gig. Knowing this Govt, they'll probably just go with some fudgey wish-washy "you shouldn't not perhaps consider going out but the pubs will stay open and you shouldn't be in them" sort of thing. Frankly though, as per Registerme's recent experience (hope you're ok), this thing seems so bloody transmissive that I'm not sure even the most stringent measures they'd consider would do an awful lot. Meanwhile, I'm in Mexico double-pfized and not planning on leaving, so I have all of my fingers and toes crossed that what is coming out of SA is comparable for everybody. Agree to most of that except that I'm shocked someone could not agree to all my posts  Actually where you write anti-vaxxers I assume you didn't mean to conflate anti-vaxxers with anti-lockdown people and indeed there is no distinction between the "bill gates" anti-vaxx loonies and those who may specifically be questioning the covid vaccine (and for different age groups). I wouldn't put all those types into one bag (especially not the loony, rabid anti-vax types).
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 12, 2021 17:05:11 GMT
well its not "vague waffle from the media" is it ? They have simply reported that a minister has said: in toto, no more and no less. They have not stated it as their opinion, their fact or anything else. Just that person a said b. What would you rather they do: not report what a minister of the govt has said ? If there is waffle, then it can only be on the part of the minister. They could chose to interview a couple scientists and get quotes from them about the situation. The minister for example, said "I can now confirm there are hospitalised cases of omicron....". They could chose to ask how many cases, how many in ICU and how many on Oxygen. But no, they leave it at that in order to worry people into having their booster. I'd rather get the truth from say the bbc and not be forced into finding scientists and medics who I consider reasonably unbiased (e.g. www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2vI4XczqZ8 ) sorry, but I frankly think this ridiculous. The 'new news' is that the first cases are in hospital. We can presume at the moment its a small number. Maybe none are yet in ICU, esp. since they have not mentioned that any are. Right now its a small sample size, and since only the first cases are in, and since severe disease and hospitlisations by definition lag cases, and identification of O specific cases lags actual instances of cases, what on earth are the scientists going to 'say' at this juncture beyond what has already been said and reported over the last few days i.e. that the numbers infected will go up, that will result in hospital cases, and as yet we have no idea how serious that will or won't be. You have preferred to read it as 'scaremongering'. I see it pretty much as reporting ministerial statements as they have happened, and in the context of probably not a lot else to say. They have included some commentary from the head of the UK Health Security Agency: "Dr Susan Hopkins, chief medical adviser for the UK Health Security Agency, said she expected to see an increase in the number of people in hospital with Omicron infection.
It is not clear if those people who are in hospital with Omicron are there because of the virus or for other reasons.
She said there had not been a report of a death from the variant in the UK yet, although she pointed out that it had only been identified two weeks ago. It is two weeks after infection that you would expect to see people admitted to hospital, with deaths coming after that."What else would you want them to say or expect them to be in a position to say ??
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 12, 2021 17:13:04 GMT
They have included some commentary from the head of the UK Health Security Agency: "Dr Susan Hopkins, chief medical adviser for the UK Health Security Agency, said she expected to see an increase in the number of people in hospital with Omicron infection.
So you need to be head of the UK Health Security Agency to work out that the number of people in hospital with Omicron is going to increase?
I despair, I really do.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 12, 2021 17:25:56 GMT
You have preferred to read it as 'scaremongering'. I see it pretty much as reporting ministerial statements as they have happened, and in the context of probably not a lot else to say. This seems absolutely bob-on. Michael is complaining that the article isn't something that it just isn't, rather than reading it for what it is - a report on a politican's statement, with some background context. Let's break the article down... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59627188Headline: Covid: First people in UK hospitals with Omicron variantSimple statement of fact. First three sentences: The first people in the UK are in hospital with Omicron infections, Nadhim Zahawi has said.
The new variant of coronavirus now accounts for a third of cases in London, the education secretary said.
With two doses of a vaccine "not enough" Mr Zahawi encouraged people to get a booster jab - those aged 30 and over are eligible to do so from Monday. (link for more detail)Simple reportage of his statement, clearly listed as such. It goes on to give some numbers for context: As of Sunday, there have been 3,137 confirmed cases of the Omicron variant in the UK.
But the true number is likely to be far higher (link for more detail).
There were 48,854 new positive Covid cases reported across the UK on Sunday - there have been 360,480 cases in the last seven days.Telling us that Omicron is not a large proportion of national new cases, but it seems to be in one particular area of the country. Could it give us a figure for the London rate? Well, it's told us one in three locally. And we know that's in the context of a consistently high number for the last week. Then it goes on to talk about a bit of wider context and the new measures: Scientists from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) have warned that the UK will face a substantial wave (link) of Omicron infections without further restrictions beyond the Plan B measures (link) announced last week.
These include recommending people work from home if they can, expanding mask-wearing rules and introducing Covid passes for entry to some venues - parliament will vote on the changes on Tuesday (link).
People in England with two or more jabs who are close contacts of Covid cases will be told to take daily lateral flow tests for seven days (link) from Tuesday.
It means people in close contact with suspected or confirmed Omicron variant cases no longer need to self-isolate.
Omicron study suggests major wave in January (link)
How can I tell if I have Omicron? (link)
Care home visitors cut to three to slow Omicron (link)Back to reporting Zahawi's comments in a bit more detail: Mr Zahawi told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show the new variant was a "big bump in the road" on the journey from pandemic to epidemic.
He said a "national endeavour" was needed on the vaccine roll-out with the country in a "race against Omicron".
The current measures in response to the variant were "proportionate", the education secretary added.
Asked by Andrew Marr if he could guarantee all schools would be open in January, Mr Zahawi said he would do "everything in my power" to ensure all of them stayed open and protected but he stopped short of giving a guarantee.
He also said there was no plan at the moment to vaccinate primary school-age children against Covid.Some comments from a couple of medical experts: Dr Susan Hopkins, chief medical adviser for the UK Health Security Agency, said she expected to see an increase in the number of people in hospital with Omicron infection.It is not clear if those people who are in hospital with Omicron are there because of the virus or for other reasons.(yet Michael seems to think the article should include personal medical information that clearly isn't in the public domain) She said there had not been a report of a death from the variant in the UK yet, although she pointed out that it had only been identified two weeks ago. It is two weeks after infection that you would expect to see people admitted to hospital, with deaths coming after that.(so these hospitalisations are exactly what you'd predict) A big wave of infections was inevitable but what remained unclear was the impact that would have on hospitals, she said.She said the numbers of people being infected with Omicron means it will find the unvaccinated or people with a poor immune response to the vaccine.(just like the other variants) "This is a big wave coming straight at us - if we see even half the severity that we saw with Delta then we are facing a very large number of hospitalisations and potential deaths," she said.(because about all we do know so far is that it's more infectious) Mr Zahawi said that even if Omicron was less severe than other variants, due its infectiousness "a small percentage of a very large population will put many people in hospital".Although she described the current measures as "sensible", Dr Hopkins said more may be needed, adding that the government faced "very difficult" decisions ahead.Chris Hopson, chief executive of NHS Providers - the association of NHS trusts - described (link) staff as "completely flat out and beyond full stretch" with it already being "busier than before at this time of year", even prior to the peak of the Omicron variant.A bit more information on the changing booster situation: The booster roll-out in England has been expanded in response to the new variant and from Monday people 30 and over will be able to book their top-up shots.
The time people have to wait between second and third vaccine doses has also been reduced to three months - rather than after six months.Then some reaction from two other political perspectives: Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said he was "very concerned about the new variant" and confirmed that his party would back the government's measures to slow Omicron's spread.But he accused the government of a "failure to plan" and being "behind the curve" with the booster programme.Welsh health minister Eluned Morgan said new Covid restrictions were likely "in the next few weeks" in order to deal with Omicron.She said there "will come a point" where it is likely that people in Wales will be advised against attending Christmas parties.There is simply nowhere in that article that there is any opinion or bias from the Beeb... unless there's an allegation of selective reporting of Zahawi's comments to the point that their context is distorted. I didn't see the Marr interview, but I think it unlikely, especially since the full interview will be available on iPlayer, so any shenanigans would be quickly detected.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Dec 12, 2021 17:50:50 GMT
They could chose to interview a couple scientists and get quotes from them about the situation. The minister for example, said "I can now confirm there are hospitalised cases of omicron....". They could chose to ask how many cases, how many in ICU and how many on Oxygen. But no, they leave it at that in order to worry people into having their booster. I'd rather get the truth from say the bbc and not be forced into finding scientists and medics who I consider reasonably unbiased (e.g. www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2vI4XczqZ8 ) sorry, but I frankly think this ridiculous. The 'new news' is that the first cases are in hospital. We can presume at the moment its a small number. Maybe none are yet in ICU, esp. since they have not mentioned that any are. Right now its a small sample size, and since only the first cases are in, and since severe disease and hospitlisations by definition lag cases, and identification of O specific cases lags actual instances of cases, what on earth are the scientists going to 'say' at this juncture beyond what has already been said and reported over the last few days i.e. that the numbers infected will go up, that will result in hospital cases, and as yet we have no idea how serious that will or won't be. You have preferred to read it as 'scaremongering'. I see it pretty much as reporting ministerial statements as they have happened, and in the context of probably not a lot else to say. They have included some commentary from the head of the UK Health Security Agency: "Dr Susan Hopkins, chief medical adviser for the UK Health Security Agency, said she expected to see an increase in the number of people in hospital with Omicron infection.
It is not clear if those people who are in hospital with Omicron are there because of the virus or for other reasons.
She said there had not been a report of a death from the variant in the UK yet, although she pointed out that it had only been identified two weeks ago. It is two weeks after infection that you would expect to see people admitted to hospital, with deaths coming after that."What else would you want them to say or expect them to be in a position to say ?? I don't understand why it is "ridiculous" in your book for when being told there are people in hospital to ask "How many?" As for just reporting ministers I think you were arguing some time ago that the BBC is completely separate from the state (despite being run by government appointment people and funded by taxation). Apologies if that wasn't you.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Dec 12, 2021 17:54:12 GMT
Test and Trace have finally woken up. More than 48 hours after my positive result. The website is so infuriating I rage quit. EDIT: One example:- It wants to know where I've been, and what I've done. Which is perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. I choose shopping from the drop down. I choose Sainsburys from the drop down. It wants the address. To use the address finder you need to know the name, street name, and postcode. If I knew that I'd know the ******* address wouldn't I  . |
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 12, 2021 18:27:18 GMT
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Dec 12, 2021 18:28:59 GMT
Alarm bell 🚨 Alert level 3 has been raised to level 4.
According to UKHSA, omicron cases have gone from 337 to 3137 in just 6 days.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Dec 12, 2021 19:34:41 GMT
Just back from spain. Completed spanish health form with vacination evidence etc. Went into various bars and restuarants and was asked for documentation each time. The scanning device for the QR code failed in all establishments except Barcelona airport. A friend we were with who is a spanish resident who had all official docs also failed to scan. Proprietors gave up and seved us anyway.
Makes you wonder if any governements actually test these software programmes before roll out.
Will be interesting how the smoking ban in spain and new zealand will be enforced when it is introduced.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 12, 2021 19:47:26 GMT
Just back from spain. Completed spanish health form with vacination evidence etc. Went into various bars and restuarants and was asked for documentation each time. The scanning device for the QR code failed in all establishments except Barcelona airport. A friend we were with who is a spanish resident who had all official docs also failed to scan. Proprietors gave up and seved us anyway. Makes you wonder if any governements actually test these software programmes before roll out. So it worked everywhere else, bar that one venue? Probably a localised connectivity issue. He says, charitably, definitely not wanting to suggest that that one bar owner had deliberately broken it... We wondered that when we went to Rome, a couple of months after the Italians introduced the first European public-indoor smoking ban. That was nearly 17 years ago...
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Dec 12, 2021 20:03:20 GMT
www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/news-events/epidemiological-update-omicron-data-9-decemberCould someone explain why the UK is not one of the best country to prepare against omicron despite the early start of booster drive? As of the 9th December, the UK has more confirmed Omicron cases than all the EU countries combined? Is it because we are slow to vaccinate the under 18s? or is it the isolation rules are not strict enough?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 12, 2021 20:14:45 GMT
sorry, but I frankly think this ridiculous. The 'new news' is that the first cases are in hospital. We can presume at the moment its a small number. Maybe none are yet in ICU, esp. since they have not mentioned that any are. Right now its a small sample size, and since only the first cases are in, and since severe disease and hospitlisations by definition lag cases, and identification of O specific cases lags actual instances of cases, what on earth are the scientists going to 'say' at this juncture beyond what has already been said and reported over the last few days i.e. that the numbers infected will go up, that will result in hospital cases, and as yet we have no idea how serious that will or won't be. You have preferred to read it as 'scaremongering'. I see it pretty much as reporting ministerial statements as they have happened, and in the context of probably not a lot else to say. They have included some commentary from the head of the UK Health Security Agency: "Dr Susan Hopkins, chief medical adviser for the UK Health Security Agency, said she expected to see an increase in the number of people in hospital with Omicron infection.
It is not clear if those people who are in hospital with Omicron are there because of the virus or for other reasons.
She said there had not been a report of a death from the variant in the UK yet, although she pointed out that it had only been identified two weeks ago. It is two weeks after infection that you would expect to see people admitted to hospital, with deaths coming after that."What else would you want them to say or expect them to be in a position to say ?? I don't understand why it is "ridiculous" in your book for when being told there are people in hospital to ask "How many?" As for just reporting ministers I think you were arguing some time ago that the BBC is completely separate from the state (despite being run by government appointment people and funded by taxation). Apologies if that wasn't you. It is worrying that the new variant is already causing hospital admissions, although it is said to be a milder virus. Of course if it causes a huge number of cases there will be a percentage of those that will be admitted to hospital, which may become difficult for the NHS to cope with.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Dec 12, 2021 20:50:33 GMT
I don't understand why it is "ridiculous" in your book for when being told there are people in hospital to ask "How many?" As for just reporting ministers I think you were arguing some time ago that the BBC is completely separate from the state (despite being run by government appointment people and funded by taxation). Apologies if that wasn't you. It is worrying that the new variant is already causing hospital admissions, although it is said to be a milder virus. Of course if it causes a huge number of cases there will be a percentage of those that will be admitted to hospital, which may become difficult for the NHS to cope with. If only one person is hospitalised who happened to be in hospital because he had a heart attack due to chronic high blood pressure and high cholesterol levels it wouldn't be worrying at all (from a pandemic point of view).
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 12, 2021 21:06:58 GMT
Just back from spain. Completed spanish health form with vacination evidence etc. Went into various bars and restuarants and was asked for documentation each time. The scanning device for the QR code failed in all establishments except Barcelona airport. A friend we were with who is a spanish resident who had all official docs also failed to scan. Proprietors gave up and seved us anyway. Makes you wonder if any governements actually test these software programmes before roll out. Will be interesting how the smoking ban in spain and new zealand will be enforced when it is introduced. I got back from 2 weeks in Lanzarote on Thursday. What a refreshing change to see people following the rules without all the self entitlement you see from many in this country. No need for docs to get into places, but everyone wears amask on the bus, everyone wears a mask in the supermarket, everyone wears a mask inside restaurants, everyone wears a mask when going to the toilet in bars.
In my 2 weeks I didn't see anyone (including the brits on holiday) who needed an exemption because of some questionable medical issue.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 12, 2021 21:10:36 GMT
www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/news-events/epidemiological-update-omicron-data-9-decemberCould someone explain why the UK is not one of the best country to prepare against omicron despite the early start of booster drive? As of the 9th December, the UK has more confirmed Omicron cases than all the EU countries combined? Is it because we are slow to vaccinate the under 18s? or is it the isolation rules are not strict enough? It might be simpler than that - or more complicated. Remember that the UK is probably the world leading centre for genome analysis of covid (PCR tests). So the fact that we have more confirmed cases does not mean that we have more cases: simply that our systems have been able to detect them both earlier and at scale. This is one quite likely scenario. The slightly more complicated might come from either one of or a combination of some of the following (my supposition): - Our historical relationships with countries such as SA and Zimbabwe means we may have imported cases earlier and more of them compared to others (though NL might be expected to be ahead of us on that basis) - Despite people's winging, we have been running anti-Covid social policies that are way less stringent than many european countries (that have for example required covid passoports for yonks).To that extent, we might simply be a large scale petri dish for transmission of a highly transmissable virus in the way that a number of other countries have not been - It didn't go unnoticed by some commentators that the England-South Africa autumn international on the 20th November had quite a lot of potential to be a superspreader event. The first cases in the UK were reported on the 27th Nov. The first samples testing +ve for O in SA date to 9th Nov. All/some/or none of the above might apply
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