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Post by mrclondon on Feb 3, 2020 19:35:44 GMT
One question I have is why can't the folk being quarantined simply be tested for the virus? If clear, then free to go now etc..... From www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3048748/not-one-four-tests-later-chinese-man-finally-confirmed
"Four tests were needed to confirm a case of the new deadly coronavirus in northern China, highlighting the difficulty of screening for the previously unknown illness, which has spread throughout the world.
[...]
The health commission said that up to three tests had been required to confirm an infection in other patients."
There have been a few reports of family members of confirmed cases testing negative when they are first tested.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Feb 3, 2020 22:49:20 GMT
I think that's because of the difficulty of detecting the virus until it's multiplied within the body. And once there's enough virus to detect, there's enough to make you ill. Though I don't claim great expertise on this. agreed Viral load would only need to be small to be detected it would need to have a monoclonal antibody that would attach to the virus that make it visible. They need to detect the antibody rather than the virus itself there would be an increase in lymphocytes Relatively quickly in those infected before they had more visible symptoms. Superinfectors are the big unknown. Now more deaths than SARS due to the very high rate of transmission. This is just the start. Watch “Last Ship” for the end
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 4, 2020 1:05:32 GMT
Its now 7 days since I started this thread, with the comment that the events unfolding in China were scaring me badly. This remains the case. At the time there was around 2700 confirmed cases in China, plus around 50 across the world. Most provinces other than Hubei had typically 20-60 confirmed cases, each of which I had observed increasing at an 'exponential' rate over the previous days (actually 2nd order polynomial). We're now at over 20,000 confirmed cases in China and almost 200 outside, with the provinces outside Hubei now ranging up to 725 per province. (Data source, BNO News , same link as per my OP which is being updated in realtime ) Provinces vary in size upto 120 million inhabitants, with most a similar size to ourselves / France / Germany / Italy of 40-80m. ( Wikipedia) I watched Matt Hancock's statement to parliament this afternoon (which generally came across well) and he made a couple points that I think are worth repeating, firstly that this is "a marathon not a sprint" and will be ongoing for many months, and secondly he has around 50 specialist beds, plus a further 500 that are appropriate (which I guess means isolation beds in other hospitals). So for a population of 65m we have around 550 beds available to treat contagious patients (less those currently occupied by any severe measles cases etc) As a first order approximation it is probably not unreasonable to assume that the per capita distribution of isolation unit beds won't vary much across the globe. Which means that the confirmed cases in many of China's provinces may be reaching the extent of normal health care provision. Guangdong has one of the largest counts of confirmed cases outside Hubei, and is the province with the border to Hong Kong & Macau, and supplies a lot of their day to day needs, especially food. The amount of geo-politicking the last 7 days is truly frightening, with more emphasis on implications for trade than health. I fear that is going to bite the world big time over the coming months, fuelled in part by the WHO saying closing borders with China is not necessary. I suspect their view is more nuanced than that, and is really focussed at keeping trade flowing. This appears to have given the green light to countries to formulate their own policy, with HK slow to implement measures and Pakistan restarting scheduled flights to China following the WHO statement. The gulf states also seem reluctant to sever direct flights, and of course the UK is still accepting a few direct flights by Chinese airlines. There is a real danger here of complacency. The markets are shrugging this off on the whole, yet there are clear downside risks to G7 economies even if G7 countries escape with relatively few mortalities. China is now a major part of global supply chains, and based on current data at risk of a very damaging and long lasting epidemic. The notion that they they can isolate Hubei and deal with a relatively low incidence of cases in the rest of the country has, over the last 7 days probably failed. If normalish daily life were to resume contagion would sky rocket. Wuhan is a major centre for automotive manufacturing, and off-patent medicines; industrial sectors that have minimal direct relevance to the UK. Most of the Brits out there seemed to be teaching English, and from a quick google the only degree taught in English at Wuhan uni is a medical degree. Whilst Wuhan is not a major business destination for Brits (although I have been once), there are apparently c. 30,000 Brits living in mainland China (plus I should imagine huge numbers more in HK). I believe the next 7 to 10 days will determine whether the current calmness of the markets is justified, or whether current assumptions on global trade and growth need to be binned.
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 4, 2020 3:21:24 GMT
I have been deliberately restricting my comments on the subject to a broad high level view as to possible implications for the financial markets and trade. There are simply too many unknowns at this stage to consider implications for our health, but of course we mustn't forget the numbers of confirmed cases and deaths represent human suffering, and some of the human stories being posted online are harrowing.
Analyising data and drawing conclusions as to the probability of underlying causes and implications thereof is what I do (normally analysising some aspect of manufacturing be it quality, throughput, sick-days, component supply / debottlenecking etc). Regression analysis / curve fitting is a massively important tool to allow extrapolation from observed data and to create mathematical models to answer what if questions. In real life correlated data is random within a general trend (be it linear, polynomial or exponential), and R 2 is a parameter which tells you how close the curve fit is to the observed data points with 1.0 (100%) being a perfect fit (random background link). In real life getting a curve fit of 90 to 95% is good enough for subsequent modelling, and 100% just doesn't happen in practise - nothing in the world is that perfect (although I believe analysis of bee honeycombs come close) Matt Hancock acknowledged in parliament that the quality of the data being released is accepted by everyone incl the Chinese as being far from perfect, but in such a fast moving situation it is what it is. Fair enough. It is also generally accepted that it is taking 5 to 7 days from someone being tested in China to the point that the Chinese are comfortable adding that to the list of confirmed cases. Whereas in the UK its 24 to 36 hours, USA 2 to 3 days etc etc. So the data is always several days behind current circumstances.
Lots of people have been modelling the data from China, but one person on twitter has caught my eye for the regression anaysis he has done. The number of confirmed cases for the whole of China fits a 2nd order polynomial curve fit with R2 = 1.0000 (latest data) or 0.9999 for the previous day.
Co-incidence ? or ??
Some final thoughts on data quality
a) Wuhan was slow to start testing, and there was probably a catch up on testing amongst the early data that was published by the Chinese. This may account for the relatively high mortality rate amongst the first confirmed cases announced (per the Lancet published studies) as some of the cases were much further advanced than would normally be tested. b) There is an upper limit of the testing capability in any 24 hr period in any province, and there have been reports that on some days Wuhan has run out test kits. c) The released data figures for provinces other than Hubei should be better quality by virtue of not suffering from a or b above d) There may be a major disconnect between the magnitude of the figures in Hubei compared to other provinces and hence may not not be directly comparable nor may it be appropriate to extrapolate from them. There is a non zero probability that the figures for Hubei are ssignificantly understated due to point b. and reflecting those who are passing away (in hospital or at home) without a confirmed diagnosis. e) The curve fit above encompasses Hubei and the rest of the mainland provinces.
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 4, 2020 5:43:22 GMT
mrclondon, no coincidence, I don't think his regression analysis stands up to scrutiny. I was very sceptical of R 2=1.0000 for this kind of application. It would mean that every data point would fall precisely on that polynomial, which is extremely unlikely for a statistic like a count of viral cases being reported. So I analysed the data points shown on that graph and I cannot see how they lead to that R 2 value, or indeed even that polynomial... I assume 'd' is the number of days counting back from today. For the function given, namely f(d) = 179.14d 2 - 3399.86d + 20368.6, we can see immediately that f(0)=20368.6. That value isn't a data point on the parabola given - and it certainly should be if R 2 = 1.0000. On no day were there 20,369 cases reported. Similarly f(1) doesn't match any data point, etc, etc. It's easy to calculate f(10) = 17914 - 33998.6 + 20368.6 = 4,284 . Yet according to the raw data on the graph, ten days ago there were just 1,287 cases confirmed, and 4,284 was nearer seven days ago. Something's wrong here. Now it's been a while since I was fully adept at this stuff, and I'm prepared to accept my analysis may be awry (given advancing years!), either that or I've missed something, but I suspect the finding quoted is somewhat inaccurate. A parabola (second order polynomial) is a pretty good fit, but certainly not with R 2=1.0000. It's extremely unlikely the number of confirmed cases would ever lead to R 2=1.0000 I would suggest. So much so that if I was told it did, I would hazard a guess that the authorities had cheated by first choosing a parabola, then making up the data to fit it!! My own best-fit second order polynomial for the data shown has R 2=0.9943. Yes, it's expanding in a parabolic fashion, but not quite as published on that Tweet.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Feb 4, 2020 9:02:28 GMT
With a 5% rise in 2 days for emerging markets, does this suggest that markets believe it's under control? (that's a genuine question btw)
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james100
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Post by james100 on Feb 4, 2020 9:06:47 GMT
<snip> As a first order approximation it is probably not unreasonable to assume that the per capita distribution of isolation unit beds won't vary much across the globe. Which means that the confirmed cases in many of China's provinces may be reaching the extent of normal health care provision. <snip> I think number of isolation unit beds per capita is a really relevant point. I don't have exact data on this but I would assume it is closely correlated with all hospital bed provision which is distributed with very great variance. World Bank database gives the following per 1000 (all numbers latest data 2012-2013) as follows: China = 4.2; Japan = 13.4; Germany 8.3; France = 6.5; UK = 2.8. Simply put, I think the UK is incredibly ill-prepared to deal with anything like this (actually with any non-normal event be that health, economic, whatever).
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 4, 2020 9:14:27 GMT
Anyone deliberately passing on the virus can be subject to the death penalty!
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Post by dan1 on Feb 4, 2020 9:26:09 GMT
<snip> As a first order approximation it is probably not unreasonable to assume that the per capita distribution of isolation unit beds won't vary much across the globe. Which means that the confirmed cases in many of China's provinces may be reaching the extent of normal health care provision. <snip> I think number of isolation unit beds per capita is a really relevant point. I don't have exact data on this but I would assume it is closely correlated with all hospital bed provision which is distributed with very great variance. World Bank database gives the following per 1000 (all numbers latest data 2012-2013) as follows: China = 4.2; Japan = 13.4; Germany 8.3; France = 6.5; UK = 2.8. Simply put, I think the UK is incredibly ill-prepared to deal with anything like this (actually with any non-normal event be that health, economic, whatever). Indeed, it would appear that we're at particular risk out of comparable developed world nations. Source www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbersAs we're all acutely aware, there simply is no spare capacity in the NHS.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 4, 2020 10:25:39 GMT
Can I just say that as someone who last week had to spend 4 days with around 5000 colleagues, and came through Htw passport hall when there was a plane load of face mask wearing people in passport control having come off a flight from China, and who had a lousy night the last two nights because of a cough and generally feeling ***, that talk of parabolic curves is concerning whether R=1.0 or 0.994.....
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 4, 2020 14:09:16 GMT
With a 5% rise in 2 days for emerging markets, does this suggest that markets believe it's under control? (that's a genuine question btw) I've been reading a few blog sites to try to understand why markets are apparently so resilient. A lot of it comes across as macho postering (think bare chest Putin standing in some cold water river in Russia). One observation that did have a ring of truth to it was along the lines of "World markets are overvalued and buying the dip feels risky, and yet attempting to short the markets is pointless due to central banks etc rigging the game (aka quantative easing etc)."
To reinforce my point regarding supply chains under strain, Hyundai has today announced the closure of its factories in South Korea due to shortage of wiring looms sourced in China.
You specifically referred to 'emerging markets' - its perhaps worth bearing in mind that many indices in this sector are heavy on BRIC, and at this point there will be some speculation that BRI might capitalise on the misfortune of C.
In other news FO now advising all Brits to leave China, and some world airlines are beginning to halt filghts to HK (e.g. Air India, American Airlines).
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 4, 2020 14:19:34 GMT
mrclondon, I've had time to take a closer look at that Twitter thread and spotted he has produced an R 2 coefficient extremely close to 1.0000 by restricting the scope to just the last four data points. That's not unexpected and not particularly useful in a data set exhibiting a smooth trend. As you'd know, with three data points, even any three randomly chosen data points, it's always possible to fit a parabola perfectly and guarantee R 2 of exactly 1.0000 (in the same way that a straight line can always be fitted perfectly to two data points). Adding a fourth point, even vaguely in trend, doesn't really tell you much and is still likely to produce something close to R 2 = 1.0000, exactly as he's found. No real surprise there. For the purpose of extrapolation - the purpose of the exercise after all - I posit he'd be better extending the parabolic fit to at least the last 6 (say) data points rather than 4. He'd then get f(d) = 151.07d 2 - 3301.9d + 20398, still with R² = 0.9999. As you say, an R 2 coefficient of that magnitude represents a near perfect fit, but being based on more data I suspect this would be a better predictor than the four data point version he's published. Nevertheless, I have to say it's a good and thought provoking piece of work. 👍
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 4, 2020 15:55:35 GMT
Now seen that MRC has mentioned this but what the hell: UK tells all Brits to leave China (wherever you are)
Did this happen during SARS ? I'm not sure it did.
Does anyone else have that niggling suspicion that the world reaction at Govt. level is telling us it might just be tiddly widdly bit worse than it appears on the surface ?
Back to my coughing.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 4, 2020 15:57:51 GMT
....with three data points, even any three randomly chosen data points, it's always possible to fit a parabola perfectly and guarantee R 2 of exactly 1.0000 (in the same way that a straight line can always be fitted perfectly to two data points). oooh, a bit of this conversation I can actually understand even on first reading.
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corto
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Post by corto on Feb 4, 2020 16:15:44 GMT
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