alender
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Post by alender on Aug 28, 2020 21:29:05 GMT
Where was the balance when AC decided to to give flat rate repayments In AAs leaving the larger lenders with a more toxic set of loans which might/will (who knows from the info given out so far) be untradable.
In the interest of balance please can you tell me which of your accounts have been a success for lenders. I have made a list but there may have been more.
MLA GBA1 GBA2 GEA
QAA 30D 90D
I understand some people have made money from trading or getting out before the problems come to light but I would like to know how you view you success for lenders who have stuck with you (and are now stuck) pre and post covid.
Yes decided to screw over larger investors to divert flak me thinks 😀 get numbers effected down & more manageable 😀... anyhow we will see ... the day of reckoning will be soon doubtless If AC survive it will be interesting to see what happens once the government support has ended, it may well keep a lot of the smaller investors but I think it will lose a lot of the larger ones, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. It will probably need to rely on institutional money but these will be a lot harder on AC than it's retail investors and will probably get better returns at the cost of the small investor.
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Post by bradley02 on Aug 28, 2020 21:40:18 GMT
There is no sensible alternative to this route and approach. The interconnectivity and reliance on each stakeholder is vital for the continued success of all parties. There should be recognition of this fact and understanding that just because the current conditions are not perfect, or are the way we would like them to be, we are where we are. As an investor, I am content to accept good rather than perfect. Good meaning, the company I entrust with my investment with has, to date, weathered the financial storm and managed necessary changes to protect my/our funds. No losses. In our tunnel vision bubble, we may not recognise how good and commendable this is until a hindsight view is available. It's simply not true to say there have been 'No losses', as I've had losses declared in the last 3 tax years. Might be true to say "no overall losses (profits-losses)", but even that is helped by AC refusing to call in loans such as #227, which they allow to be continally kicked down the road by the borrower making ever more incredible claims of 'full payment in a year or so, vs total devastation now". In practise, capital valuation heading south, not a single £1 paid in 3 years (on an 18 month loan!). AC's help in getting our money back? Absolutely zero.
Compare this with RS, where I've never had a single £1 of losses declared, and they're returning money far faster than AC.
Just to clarify, No overall losses this year, so far, or year on year since 2013 for me. Also this post contribution is specifically on the subject of the Access Accounts investments not the MLA. I do recognise that individual investor losses may occur in the MLA which in part is dependent on individual investment choices and personal appetite for risk and reward. My personal investment aims and requirements are for stable good returns for low risk. For what it is worth, in these uncertain financial times I see the AC AAs as an appropriate place to continue investing my funds for my long term aims. I am not an AC employee, or a shill and have no intention in trying to influence any investment decisions. Always do your own research. Best....
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 28, 2020 21:45:53 GMT
And regarding PSSL returns, the Investment Trusts tend to use significant leverage to pay their slightly elevated returns to investors whilst also paying substantial fees to the managers. It’s a bit like having a house with a mortgage rather than unleveraged, good on the way up and bad on the way down. We don’t use any leverage so safer in times like recent months we feel. But unfortunately it is not the case my investment in PSSL has substantially outperformed AC in pre and post covid times.
As you rightfully say a leveraged company like PSSL should have performed worse post covid but the fact is it performed better, therefore the most obvious reason for this is the quality of the loan managers and their decisions, firstly do not promise money you do not have in good times as it will bite you in bad times. In a a way this is a sort of future leverage as it allows you to take on loans without the full money to service the full life of the loan. There are other issues like forbearance and if companies like PSSL give a capital repayment all shareholders get the payout in proportion to their holding. This way all shareholders are proportionally stuck with the same bad loans, this is a more balanced approach.
PSSL has consistently underperformed. Its targeted return is considerably higher and it trades at a significant discount to NAV as a result. Currently involved in a protected takeover saga but if that doesnt go ahead the fund could be wound up at which point your capital gains may well evaporate and your exit be blocked. The investment managers were sacked in Feb though replacements yet to be found. Funny thing perception. Lots of coverage in P2Pfinancenews and elsewhere
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Post by bradley02 on Aug 28, 2020 21:46:01 GMT
Seriously Ian, if you honestly believe that HSG or similar property investment bonds is a better place to invest. You really NEED to do some research. Associated words such as misleading, unregulated, investigation and FCA are not hard to find. As a young investor, I paid the price in believing financial snake oil salesman with professional looking websites. I use the experience of money in money out! If I want long term use the stock market which for me is up 30% yoy (unbelievably lucky/ good judgement who knows😀) ....As regards HSG their CEO actually speaks to investors (unlike arrogant RBS lot @ assetz) ...late accounts... I actually took that up with them and they passed me on to somebody @ PWC given they are proposing a float .... PROPER advisors ... not a just a firm that uses his mates as they share Teeing off times in Southport?  Assetz have disadvantaged larger investors for years with their gimmicks to attract new & not reward the loyal .... ha ho .. lets hope they prosper for everybody prospers ... Nobody wants then to fail least of all the bartenders of south Manchester 👋 Ian, I wish you success in your investment journey. Truth is, we all seek the same destination. Have a great weekend.
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 28, 2020 21:55:45 GMT
Dont understand how ratesetter was able to pay investors back faster than assetz. Everything I believed prior to covid was wrong. I actually removed funds from ratesetter and loanpad and put them into Assetz thinking it was a safer platform. This was mainly due to assetz investing in secured loans. Ratesetter was investing in unsecured loans and loanpad was too my thinking too small a platform to survive. Boy was I wrong. Yep me to, I moved my RS funds to AC as I thougth they were safer and did not have to mess about of bids etc, what a mistake.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 28, 2020 22:09:16 GMT
Seriously Ian, if you honestly believe that HSG or similar property investment bonds is a better place to invest. You really NEED to do some research. Associated words such as misleading, unregulated, investigation and FCA are not hard to find. As a young investor, I paid the price in believing financial snake oil salesman with professional looking websites. I use the experience of money in money out! If I want long term use the stock market which for me is up 30% yoy (unbelievably lucky/ good judgement who knows😀) ....As regards HSG their CEO actually speaks to investors (unlike arrogant RBS lot @ assetz) ...late accounts... I actually took that up with them and they passed me on to somebody @ PWC given they are proposing a float .... PROPER advisors ... not a just a firm that uses his mates as they share Teeing off times in Southport? Assetz have disadvantaged larger investors for years with their gimmicks to attract new & not reward the loyal .... ha ho .. lets hope they prosper for everybody prospers ... Nobody wants then to fail least of all the bartenders of south Manchester 👋 Ha PWC - currently undertaking a review of their procedures for detecting fraud following its involvement in the Wirecard collapse, currently being sued for allegedly passing insider information about a client it was advising to the opposing party, plus numerous other scandals - PROPER advisors  PS on the experience of money in, money out ... Zopa, FS, FC, RS and even Lendy have been successes for me - (unbelievably lucky/good judgement who knows)
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 28, 2020 22:11:30 GMT
But unfortunately it is not the case my investment in PSSL has substantially outperformed AC in pre and post covid times.
As you rightfully say a leveraged company like PSSL should have performed worse post covid but the fact is it performed better, therefore the most obvious reason for this is the quality of the loan managers and their decisions, firstly do not promise money you do not have in good times as it will bite you in bad times. In a a way this is a sort of future leverage as it allows you to take on loans without the full money to service the full life of the loan. There are other issues like forbearance and if companies like PSSL give a capital repayment all shareholders get the payout in proportion to their holding. This way all shareholders are proportionally stuck with the same bad loans, this is a more balanced approach.
PSSL has consistently underperformed. Its targeted return is considerably higher and it trades at a significant discount to NAV as a result. Currently involved in a protected takeover saga but if that doesnt go ahead the fund could be wound up at which point your capital gains may well evaporate and your exit be blocked. The investment managers were sacked in Feb though replacements yet to be found. Funny thing perception. Lots of coverage in P2Pfinancenews and elsewhere You are such a fan of AC so you can only look at things one way, but the facts speak different, better returns and its loan portfolio must be considered to be a good bet otherwise who would wish to take them over, seen any offers for AC or perhaps the AA loan books, thought not.
If you would like a prediction if the take over goes ahead the share price will rise so more capital gains. If it does not the share price may temporarily go down but will rise once the wind down starts as it will release the funds from the loans as they mature. Why do you think the funds will be blocked, I have not seen anything which will delist the company. It will continue to trade on the LSE and pay out interest distributions as well as capital distributions, if you wish to see an example of how this will happen look at RDL.
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ian
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Post by ian on Aug 28, 2020 22:17:21 GMT
I use the experience of money in money out! If I want long term use the stock market which for me is up 30% yoy (unbelievably lucky/ good judgement who knows😀) ....As regards HSG their CEO actually speaks to investors (unlike arrogant RBS lot @ assetz) ...late accounts... I actually took that up with them and they passed me on to somebody @ PWC given they are proposing a float .... PROPER advisors ... not a just a firm that uses his mates as they share Teeing off times in Southport? Assetz have disadvantaged larger investors for years with their gimmicks to attract new & not reward the loyal .... ha ho .. lets hope they prosper for everybody prospers ... Nobody wants then to fail least of all the bartenders of south Manchester 👋 Ian, I wish you success in your investment journey. Truth is, we all seek the same destination. Have a great weekend. Your bang on there mate ... I cannot believe they animosity on here sometimes ... have a great weekend.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Aug 28, 2020 22:44:34 GMT
It's simply not true to say there have been 'No losses', as I've had losses declared in the last 3 tax years. Might be true to say "no overall losses (profits-losses)", but even that is helped by AC refusing to call in loans such as #227, which they allow to be continally kicked down the road by the borrower making ever more incredible claims of 'full payment in a year or so, vs total devastation now". In practise, capital valuation heading south, not a single £1 paid in 3 years (on an 18 month loan!). AC's help in getting our money back? Absolutely zero.
Compare this with RS, where I've never had a single £1 of losses declared, and they're returning money far faster than AC.
Just to clarify, No overall losses this year, so far, or year on year since 2013 for me. Also this post contribution is specifically on the subject of the Access Accounts investments not the MLA. I do recognise that individual investor losses may occur in the MLA which in part is dependent on individual investment choices and personal appetite for risk and reward. As we're clarifying things, my £5500 exposure to loan #227 is in the GBBA (not the MLA), an AC-managed account.
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Post by davee39 on Aug 28, 2020 22:54:52 GMT
PSSL has been lauded as a great success.
FACT: They Floated at £10, fell to less than £7 due to some bad investments (Funding Circle was one).
FACT: The investment manager was sacked (merged with Pollen Street) and the previous legacy portfolio was cleared out
FACT: They have often traded at a discount to Asset Value of 20%
FACT: When the manager changed, an increase in yield to 8% was promised. This was due at least a year ago and has not materialised.
FACT: The share price has been boosted by a potential bid.
FACT: The current management team has also been dismissed (served 12 m notice)
FACT: Honeycomb IT, with a similar portfolio and the same manager, has fallen from a premium to Asset Value to a 20% discount over the last 6 months,
losing investors 25% of their capital.
It is very easy to be selective with data, share prices go up and down and experiences can vary.
I could list several Investment Trusts currently at a discount of 12 - 25%. Assetz discount of 8.3% currently looks pretty good in comparison.
My tip of the day: VPC Speciality Lending: 20% discount to Asset value, 12% yield, seems to be coping well with Covid & an active share buyback program
to reduce the discount. You can thank me later. (I am neither authorised or qualified to give advice!).
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 28, 2020 23:20:29 GMT
PSSL has been lauded as a great success. FACT: They Floated at £10, fell to less than £7 due to some bad investments (Funding Circle was one). FACT: The investment manager was sacked (merged with Pollen Street) and the previous legacy portfolio was cleared out FACT: They have often traded at a discount to Asset Value of 20% FACT: When the manager changed, an increase in yield to 8% was promised. This was due at least a year ago and has not materialised. FACT: The share price has been boosted by a potential bid. FACT: The current management team has also been dismissed (served 12 m notice) FACT: Honeycomb IT, with a similar portfolio and the same manager, has fallen from a premium to Asset Value to a 20% discount over the last 6 months, losing investors 25% of their capital. It is very easy to be selective with data, share prices go up and down and experiences can vary. My tip of the day: VPC Speciality Lending: 20% discount to Asset value, 12% yield, seems to be coping well with Covid & an active share buyback program to reduce the discount. You can thank me later. (I am neither authorised or qualified to give advice!). PSSL is not a great success but for me has been so much better than AC in area of the loan investments.
These are selective dates as they are the ones when I selected to invest, yes I waited for a dip to buy.
Fact since I bought PSSL over 3 years ago it is paid all it's dividends on time and not dropped the rate even during covid.
Fact it performed much better than AC for me, perhaps because it knew when to rebalance it's portfolio.
Fact I have never been locked in.
Fact it treated all investors on a Pro Rata bases to their share holding so did not disadvantage anyone.
I do not believe there was ever any promise of 8%, I believe this was a large shareholder stating that this should happen, it may be that PSSL chose to spend the money on share repurchases which there have been a lot thereby increasing the capital value instead of paying dividends.
Fact I am not shareholder of HONY and I am comparing my personal experiences in this area. On one hand you criticise someone for being selective with the data and then you do it yourself on the dates for HONY.
The one place we agree is VSL I have been following it for a time but I chose to invest in AC and PSSL a time ago but was looking for an dip in VSL to move some of my funds from AC into VSL to spread the risk, not much chance now. However with a 12% yield not sure if it just undervalued or a dividend trap, also I do not want to add too much more money into loan companies as I want to keep a balance. IMO it does look a good bet although it has gone up a lot of late and also in IMO much better than AC even with discounts on the SM but do your own research.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Aug 29, 2020 8:02:14 GMT
And regarding PSSL returns, the Investment Trusts tend to use significant leverage to pay their slightly elevated returns to investors whilst also paying substantial fees to the managers. It’s a bit like having a house with a mortgage rather than unleveraged, good on the way up and bad on the way down. We don’t use any leverage so safer in times like recent months we feel. But unfortunately it is not the case my investment in PSSL has substantially outperformed AC in pre and post covid times.
As you rightfully say a leveraged company like PSSL should have performed worse post covid but the fact is it performed better, therefore the most obvious reason for this is the quality of the loan managers and their decisions, firstly do not promise money you do not have in good times as it will bite you in bad times. In a a way this is a sort of future leverage as it allows you to take on loans without the money to service the full life of the loan, this is a risky strategy as you are promising future money on yesterdays risk assessment. There are other issues like forbearance and if companies like PSSL give a capital repayment all shareholders get the payout in proportion to their holding. This way all shareholders are proportionally stuck with the same bad loans, this is a more balanced approach. Funnily enough, I bought into PSSL around the same time you did (late 2016 / early 2017) for 740-770p. The reason I did so was their stock price had subsided to a major discount versus NAV (something over -20%, IIRC). The sole reason your PSSL investment is looking good today is lucky timing: if you'd bought it at launch (1035p in 2014) or at peak (1185p in 2015) you'd certainly not be crowing about it. Most of your current (paper) gain is another investor's loss. What's more, if you paid 792p then your PSSL shares were trading well below that price until just 3 weeks ago (and dropped as low as 432p back in March!!)
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 29, 2020 8:24:06 GMT
But unfortunately it is not the case my investment in PSSL has substantially outperformed AC in pre and post covid times.
As you rightfully say a leveraged company like PSSL should have performed worse post covid but the fact is it performed better, therefore the most obvious reason for this is the quality of the loan managers and their decisions, firstly do not promise money you do not have in good times as it will bite you in bad times. In a a way this is a sort of future leverage as it allows you to take on loans without the money to service the full life of the loan, this is a risky strategy as you are promising future money on yesterdays risk assessment. There are other issues like forbearance and if companies like PSSL give a capital repayment all shareholders get the payout in proportion to their holding. This way all shareholders are proportionally stuck with the same bad loans, this is a more balanced approach. Funnily enough, I bought into PSSL around the same time you did (late 2016 / early 2017) for 740-770p. The reason I did so was their stock price had subsided to a major discount versus NAV (something over -20%, IIRC). The sole reason your PSSL investment is looking good now is lucky timing: if you'd bought it at launch (1035p in 2014) or at peak (1185p in 2015) you'd certainly not be crowing about it. Most of your current (paper) gain is another investor's loss. Of course I know all that, luck maybe but I did my research and was following PSSL, VSL and RDL for a time before I jumped in to PSSL. You, like me are in both, which invesment are most happy with? do you think it is a good idea to cash out of PSSL and buy more loans in AC?
Even taking out the capital gains PSSL have been consistent with the dividends of 6% no drop, no lender fees, no lock in, no treating small investors better than large, no constant change in the rules and I also get to vote which is not rigged.
The question is why would I buy at the launch, this is something I avoid as it is there is no track record, it is much more of a gamble and many investment trusts go to a discount after the launch. I would also not lend in a P2P company at it's launch.
As keeps being said if you selectively pick the high points a lot investments show AC in a better light, however very few investors will have bought at this point.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Aug 29, 2020 8:46:21 GMT
Funnily enough, I bought into PSSL around the same time you did (late 2016 / early 2017) for 740-770p. The reason I did so was their stock price had subsided to a major discount versus NAV (something over -20%, IIRC). The sole reason your PSSL investment is looking good now is lucky timing: if you'd bought it at launch (1035p in 2014) or at peak (1185p in 2015) you'd certainly not be crowing about it. Most of your current (paper) gain is another investor's loss. Of course I know all that, luck maybe but I did my research and was following PSSL, VSL and RDL for a time before I jumped in to PSSL. You, like me are in both, which invesment are most happy with? do you think it is a good idea to cash out of PSSL and buy more loans in AC?
Even taking out the capital gains PSSL have been consistent with the dividends of 6% no drop, no lender fees, no lock in, no treating small investors better than large, no constant change in the rules and I also get to vote which is not rigged.
The question is why would I buy at the launch, this is something I avoid as it is there is no track record, it is much more of a gamble and many investment trusts go to a discount after the launch. I would also not lend in a P2P company at it's launch.
As keeps being said if you selectively pick the high points a lot investments shows AC in a better light, however very few investors will have bought at this point.
They are very different investments and I don't really understand why you'd try to pick a "winner" over one specific time period. I hold both, as part of a widely diversified investment portfolio (of which P2P and related "junk" bond funds like PSSL represent rather less than 5%) and I'm happy to continue doing so. Further comment: Your "no lender fees" comment re PSSL is nonsensical. I suggest you look up the fees structure taken by the fund managers! Spoiler alert: they do very nicely out of it.
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alender
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Post by alender on Aug 29, 2020 9:09:47 GMT
Of course I know all that, luck maybe but I did my research and was following PSSL, VSL and RDL for a time before I jumped in to PSSL. You, like me are in both, which invesment are most happy with? do you think it is a good idea to cash out of PSSL and buy more loans in AC?
Even taking out the capital gains PSSL have been consistent with the dividends of 6% no drop, no lender fees, no lock in, no treating small investors better than large, no constant change in the rules and I also get to vote which is not rigged.
The question is why would I buy at the launch, this is something I avoid as it is there is no track record, it is much more of a gamble and many investment trusts go to a discount after the launch. I would also not lend in a P2P company at it's launch.
As keeps being said if you selectively pick the high points a lot investments shows AC in a better light, however very few investors will have bought at this point.
They are very different investments and I don't really understand why you'd try to pick a "winner" over one specific time period. I hold both, as part of a widely diversified investment portfolio (of which P2P and related "junk" bond funds like PSSL represent rather less than 5%) and I'm happy to continue doing so. As I keep saying the time period is the period of my investment, that's why. However it is not that important, it is the post Covid performance I am interested in.
If I wanted to pick a winner I could have given a number of other companies I have invested in, this is response to the comment on balance, I have investments in PSSL and AC both of which specialise in loans and it interesting to compare the performance, in particular post covid, one carries on the same with no reduction in dividends, the other reduces rates, locks in, keeps changing the T&Cs and blames covid for everything. Perhaps luck or perhaps much better management with more regard to it's investors.
Given the track records post covid how do you rate AC performance against "junk" bond funds like PSSL?
PS Take a look at the dividends post covid from another 2 loan investment trusts VSL (12%) and HONY (9%) dividends unchanged and paid on time.
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