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Post by martin44 on Apr 17, 2020 22:09:50 GMT
I have no problem with the suggestion that we all should consider donating to the NHS because at least it brings our attention to the underfunding that has gone on over the last decade. It doesn't appeal to me though. Taxation is the way to fund the NHS, not charitable giving. If we are unwilling to pay sufficient taxes then we have the NHS we deserve. It's tough on the workers and patients but we seem happy to vote for it. It has turned my stomach to watch Johnson and Hancock clapping for the NHS while knowing that back in 2017 when there was a cap on NHS pay, they both voted for the cap to continue. It was finally lifted the following year. According to the RCN the pay of nurses has fallen by 8% in real terms (adjusted for the CPI) since the Conservatives came to power in 2010. Also according to the RCN, nurse vacancies are currently running at 40,000 for England alone. While charitable giving is generally to be applauded, a change in political will is needed here. I agree with your principal with regards to donating, but is it really an issue?... the nhs will always be underfunded as it is an institute that cannot ever be fully funded due to its capacity to devour ££££££'s . There is imho an unhealthy obsession with the fact that "i pay my taxes to the nhs, why should i give any more" from the general population. Whats wrong with charitable donations, its not compulsory.. surely if we all collectively are happy to raise addition funds , this can only be a positive thing.. your suggestion of a change in political will is valid... but a change to where? higher taxes is not the cure, well certainly not higher taxes on the direct uk population alone.
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Post by martin44 on Apr 17, 2020 22:32:31 GMT
I am totally cheesed off with the NHS too. Now's the time to tear it down,overwelm it and show it for the bloated facade it really is . Its taken years to get to this level but it's time to clear it out . I hope I'm not collateral damage ,but probably will be. Maybe the Old Soldier's handout will cover the pay of the top 5 executives and the rest of us will pay with our lives for their gravy train. Sorry to press you on your comment.. but who are the top 5 executives you are referring to that will benefit from the "old soldiers" handout. And why do you consider it a bloated facade?
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Post by skidrow on Apr 18, 2020 9:22:07 GMT
I have no problem with the suggestion that we all should consider donating to the NHS because at least it brings our attention to the underfunding that has gone on over the last decade. It doesn't appeal to me though. Taxation is the way to fund the NHS, not charitable giving. If we are unwilling to pay sufficient taxes then we have the NHS we deserve. It's tough on the workers and patients but we seem happy to vote for it. It has turned my stomach to watch Johnson and Hancock clapping for the NHS while knowing that back in 2017 when there was a cap on NHS pay, they both voted for the cap to continue. It was finally lifted the following year. According to the RCN the pay of nurses has fallen by 8% in real terms (adjusted for the CPI) since the Conservatives came to power in 2010. Also according to the RCN, nurse vacancies are currently running at 40,000 for England alone. While charitable giving is generally to be applauded, a change in political will is needed here. I agree with your principal with regards to donating, but is it really an issue?... the nhs will always be underfunded as it is an institute that cannot ever be fully funded due to its capacity to devour ££££££'s . There is imho an unhealthy obsession with the fact that "i pay my taxes to the nhs, why should i give any more" from the general population. Whats wrong with charitable donations, its not compulsory.. surely if we all collectively are happy to raise addition funds , this can only be a positive thing.. your suggestion of a change in political will is valid... but a change to where? higher taxes is not the cure, well certainly not higher taxes on the direct uk population alone. I agree with your view that one can have an unhealthy obsession with "I pay my taxes" and I hope that I have not fallen into that trap. I'll have another think about that. The issue for me, though, is much wider. If we're fortunate enough to be comfortably off then we should have a plan for how and how much we give. There are many calls on our funds and the choices we make are entirely our own - we are not answerable to anybody. In my case, I have decided that "saving lives" takes top spot and the challenge then is to find the charities that best do this. That invariably means giving to charities operating in the Third World. I find that the websites of "GiveWell" and "The Life You Can Save" are great starting points for looking into this and I commend both of them to set you onto further reading. Others will want to support the arts, some the NHS etc. etc. and of course there are non-financial ways of donating which can be just as valuable.
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Post by davee39 on Apr 18, 2020 10:08:29 GMT
It seems someone has left a tin opener out and the worms are escaping.
10 years of austerity, pfi and private tendering have given us an NHS which will not be fixed by clapping.
Brexit inspired trade deals opening up the NHS to US healthcare exploiters show up the real farce of the 'Protect our NHS' slogan.
Free to use - YES, and that needs to include dentistry
How to pay - Stop privatization, buy out all existing pfi deals (using freshly printed corona cash), scrap the 'market' which leaves NHS facilities empty while Virgin Healthcare sets up trailers in the car park (MRI scanning), fix social care etc.
I wonder how many posters here have had the unfortunate need to visit A&E before the recent virus issues. It exposes the real state of an NHS stripped to the bone and under extreme pressure. Facilities have been cut, closed and merged in the name of efficiency putting ever increasing pressure on the remaining service.
No, lets not clap for the NHS, lets put our hands tightly round the throats of those responsible for it's current deplorable state.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Apr 18, 2020 10:58:13 GMT
I am totally cheesed off with the NHS too. Now's the time to tear it down,overwelm it and show it for the bloated facade it really is . Its taken years to get to this level but it's time to clear it out . I hope I'm not collateral damage ,but probably will be. Maybe the Old Soldier's handout will cover the pay of the top 5 executives and the rest of us will pay with our lives for their gravy train. Sorry to press you on your comment.. but who are the top 5 executives you are referring to that will benefit from the "old soldiers" handout. And why do you consider it a bloated facade? Apologies to you are the only effective one but do not appreciate your colleague's work . I could name two who have been 'let go ' and retired with golden handshakes to my neck of the woods. I suggest you google health executives fired over the past, say, 5 years. Also check out the wages and remuneration packages. 'bloated facade' in this instance descibes a thin layer of hot air (covering up a cold reality of systemic failure) . Any number charitable donations would be swallowed up by the 'administration' of the present system . And we all know about gravy train 'cost of admin' dont we ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 9:51:15 GMT
The NHS was built very early in the western movement to serious health care. As the first mover it was never a brilliant design and having been investigated by every major 1st world country has never been used as a model for any other country.
Unfortunatly as the world's 5th largest employer it has been given religious importance in the UK and is no longer changeable.
While pay freezes have been in place for some years now that does not mean that people have not received pay increases. the NHS has built in pay increases as you age. These are not seen as pay increases, just the natural way of things. If the demography of the NHS moves up the wages move up. As an aging society this will happen.
I do not see any way out of this mess. We can't move forwards, we can't retreat, we cannot move sideways and the demand for the NHS is growing exponentially, though it is interesting to see that once we have Corona Virus, NHS use actually falls.
If people really cared about the NHS, they would take exercise more seriously. I have to visit NHS hospitals on a regular but infrequent basis and one things stands out. Everyone I see is fat. From the staff to the walking wounded they are eating too much and not exercising enough. Diabetes is a major cost to the NHS, around 10% www.diabetes.co.uk/cost-of-diabetes.html if we can keep up the one hours exercise everyday as mandated by the virus we could start to bring that down.
The main man responsible for this mess was Lord Young, nice old guy I met him once, and since he is dead strangling him is not a worthy activity. The last ten years are no worse than any others. My family has been disappointed for many years by its performance, but guess what, it was never intended to be perfect, only good. Since we see it through religious eyes we think perfection is the answer. If we saw it through say German, French or Italian eyes, we would see it for what it is, a badly designed process which offers you very poor service and has done for years and years. If in doubt, when all this nonsense is over go visit these countries and see what a good health service looks like, my foreign wealthy friends (note the poor pay very little) may complain about their health costs but the result is a service fit for a first world nation, a level we have seldom risen to in my 60 years.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Apr 19, 2020 10:14:59 GMT
<trim>
The main man responsible for this mess was Lord Young, nice old guy I met him once, and since he is dead strangling him is not a worthy activity. The last ten years are no worse than any others. My family has been disappointed for many years by its performance, but guess what, it was never intended to be perfect, only good. Since we see it through religious eyes we think perfection is the answer. If we saw it through say German, French or Italian eyes, we would see it for what it is, a badly designed process which offers you very poor service and has done for years and years. If in doubt, when all this nonsense is over go visit these countries and see what a good health service looks like, my foreign wealthy friends (note the poor pay very little) may complain about their health costs but the result is a service fit for a first world nation, a level we have seldom risen to in my 60 years.
I have to agree with the international comparison. If you're very bound to the UK, it's almost a reflex motion to believe the NHS is the best in the world and the idea of being exposed to a, say, Spanish hospital seems horrifying. Yet, Spain and many other countries rank well above the NHS. I certainly know where I'd rather be treated. On the flipside, I know young-ish Germans and Spanish who find their mandatory social security contribution (even if they earn nothing one month) far too high for their meagre wage. So, I guess you pays your money and take your choice. I think really all we're doing in the UK is lauding socialised healthcare, and I totally agree, we just shouldn't confuse that with having the best socialised healthcare as we objectively do not.
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one21
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The NHS.
Apr 19, 2020 10:20:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by one21 on Apr 19, 2020 10:20:31 GMT
Well stated bobo! Apparently our grandchildren are not even allowed to use the word 'fat' anymore at school, it's not pc. Also Dees graph is surprising many would have thought US stats higher than ours. Also I hear transfats are banned over there unlike here.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Apr 19, 2020 10:22:54 GMT
Well stated bobo! Apparently our grandchildren are not even allowed to use the word 'fat' anymore it's not pc. Also Dees graph is surprising many would have thought US stats higher than ours. Also I hear transfats are banned over there unlike here. I was struck by Mexico not being higher. A big belly there is almost a mandatory status symbol. Oh, man, I could go for some tacos right now.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 19, 2020 10:32:56 GMT
Well stated bobo! Apparently our grandchildren are not even allowed to use the word 'fat' anymore it's not pc. Also Dees graph is surprising many would have thought US stats higher than ours. Also I hear transfats are banned over there unlike here. I was struck by Mexico not being higher. A big belly there is almost a mandatory status symbol. Oh, man, I could go for some tacos right now. A BMI of over 25 is a bit high (overweight: 25-30, obese level 1: 30-35, level 2: 35-40 level 3: >40) but the people at serious risk and the ones you notice in the streets have much higher BMIs, I wonder how the graph would look if you raised the bar a bit?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Apr 19, 2020 10:38:47 GMT
Well stated bobo! Apparently our grandchildren are not even allowed to use the word 'fat' anymore at school, it's not pc. Also Dees graph is surprising many would have thought US stats higher than ours. Also I hear transfats are banned over there unlike here. Bear in mind that healthy includes a BMI of up to 24 and the chart includes everyone 25 and over. Would probably have been more meaninful if it was BMI 30 and over (obese)
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Post by bernythedolt on Apr 19, 2020 10:49:43 GMT
Back to the old boy walking round his garden, aren't the real winners in this not the NHS but the directors of Justgiving, once they've creamed off their massive percentage? Unless they've finally been shamed into capping it now.
They must sit there praying for days like these.
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Post by bernythedolt on Apr 19, 2020 10:54:41 GMT
Well stated bobo! Apparently our grandchildren are not even allowed to use the word 'fat' anymore at school, it's not pc. Also Dees graph is surprising many would have thought US stats higher than ours. Also I hear transfats are banned over there unlike here. Bear in mind that healthy includes a BMI of up to 24 and the chart includes everyone 25 and over. Would probably have been more meaninful if it was BMI 30 and over (obese) I holiday in France every year. You hardly see an overweight person, and when you do, they are invariably a fellow British holidaymaker. I don't understand how we got so fat, but we certainly stand out in Europe now, no question.
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Post by ruralres66 on Apr 19, 2020 11:20:07 GMT
It will be interesting to see what tangible rewards (ie pay increases) will be made to NHS workers - and others - at the next round of pay increases. No doubt people will be reminding Boris about how his life was saved. Doctors' pay is down over 20% in real terms in 10 years - pay freezes for several years, fortunate to get 1% on a couple of years, Pay Review recommendations ignored in whole or part. I wouldn't hold out much hope of even a part of that being recouped. The only hope is that the increased job satisfaction from actually doing medicine rather than all the bureaucratic cr*p - which magically turns out to be unnecessary when the chips are down - can be continued. But I wouldn't bet on that either. I wrote this on my closed forums over weekend. If anyone can spare a dime for David Tuller, I would be grateful..... I have met him and a nicer, more compassionate journalist and Public Health Academic would be very hard to find. He cannot bear injustice and bad science!
Although US based at Berkley, he is challenging matters of corruption and scientific and medical fraud and cover up in the UK. Lancet BMJ NICE etc etc
"Captain Tom Moore's 100th Birthday Walk for the NHS" 'Cpt Tom Moore is walking 100 lengths of his garden for NHS Charities Together because our fantastic NHS workers are national heroes.....' Yes, and I get it and agree, however......... it's not all roses within the NHS for post viral syndromes.Do all the post vial fatigue Corona patients know that effectively, the NHS does not have any services of merit to help post viral patients like those with ME..... (or as it is sometimes referred to as post viral fatigue syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome)? People involved with ME and CFS ( patients and carers) have been fighting this health inequality, patient abandonment and unacceptable situation for 2 decades..... 'We', the ME community, have been thwarted and stitched up by NHS 'empire builders' involved in mental health..... and by NICE, The National Institute of Clinical Excellence in particular. ....... and they, or their acolytes are still at it in NHS Oxford, causing more suffering and insult to ME patients. The charity MIND is also involved which is a shame. The above situation presents itself just at a time when a fantastic public health academic is fund raising to fight the cause for ME patients" and their families. He has devoted 5 years to this end so far....... He needs a modest amount to help him help,us, so please consider learning about this worthy cause and supporting it if you can. David has 'walked the walk' as well as 'talked the talk'. David Tuller Our very own "PACE man"! Attachments:
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Apr 19, 2020 11:29:31 GMT
The Mail reports (a story from the The Telegraph, behind paywall) "Being overweight puts people at greater risk of being hospitalised with coronavirus, study of British Covid-19 patients finds"
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