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Post by lotus_eater on May 25, 2021 15:08:07 GMT
Am I missing something? If you put money into a "crypto" that's promised to be 1:1 with US$... why not just put your money into US$? If there was a sustainable 13% return on investing those 1:1 US$ crypto, then why isn't/wouldn't that be available from US$ as well...? I "think" part of it is because the stablecoin is used to loan out other crypto coins (or loans against them), and the platforms that hold them are not banks. It would take me ages to explain it here (and it likely still wouldn't make sense, even to me) so probably better to do some Googling. There are lots of reasons why people might like to hold the USDC instead of US$, some of them perhaps not so "kosha". It's certainly not anywhere near as safe as US$, that's for sure. Although the way the central banks are printing right now, US$ is not entirely safe either. Inflation and currency devaluation will take care of that. As previously mentioned, I'm no crypto expert so I'm just transmitting what I understand. I know a couple of folks who've had USDC and USDT in Celsius for a couple of years and they say the returns are real at around 13%. Can't speak from my own personal experience as I haven't bought stablecoins yet and perhaps won't.
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Post by lotus_eater on May 25, 2021 15:11:55 GMT
lotus_eater ref: "I still can't believe people are putting huge sums of money in to it, yet still they do. Billions of dollars. There are people much more crypto-literate than me doing it though, so perhaps there's something I'm missing?" I don't think you are. Judging by this sort of reddit thread most participants seem quite aware of the Tether situation, yet they either think they're ok because they're using it sparingly or that as you suggest, they use an alternative. The other interesting trend from that thread that some highlight is that it's difficult to avoid using it even if you don't ideally want to in some cases. It seems beyond doubt that Tether is a time-bomb. They can't forever just generate cash from nothing and get away with it. As one observer suggested, it wouldn't be surprising to see them close up shop claiming to have been hacked in the near future, disappearing off with a very large suitcase of cash* The question is whether the risk to crypto is as systemic as the blog I linked to suggests it is. It's difficult to tell exactly, but having their informal equivalent of the FED money magic machine disappear in a puff of smoke is going to make for very interesting viewing. This story makes the P2P industry look as wholesome as the Hovis ad by comparison. *Well, probably Dogecoin actually  Haha, P2P does seem pretty straight compared to crypto for sure. Although it will be interesting what transpires. If you understand the block-chain platforms crypto tokens are built on and the potential, then it does beggar some attention. Not saying I understand it 100% though, actually even 20% :-D *I have a few DOGE too :-)
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on May 25, 2021 15:43:50 GMT
Seems a bit of a live event, this. The cryptosphere have been aware of the Tether situation for ages. I only really learned about it last night. 2 hours ago, you see a US finance TV show host with 1.6M Twitter followers start to smell a rat. Also, just learned that 80% of Bitcoin is bought with Tether magic-money versus cash. Don't know if he's hanging about, but ribs, what's your learned take on all of this? |
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Post by bernythedolt on May 25, 2021 16:10:38 GMT
Am I missing something? If you put money into a "crypto" that's promised to be 1:1 with US$... why not just put your money into US$? I'm going to speculate a fair chunk could be criminal laundered funds, and under-the-radar money leaving restrictive domains like China possibly? Fiat dollars being more easily traced and confiscated.
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Post by mfaxford on May 25, 2021 16:28:21 GMT
Am I missing something? If you put money into a "crypto" that's promised to be 1:1 with US$... why not just put your money into US$? If there was a sustainable 13% return on investing those 1:1 US$ crypto, then why isn't/wouldn't that be available from US$ as well...? Where I think Tether started off was being a way to have something like USD on a crypto exchange without having to deal with the banks (which seems to be problematic for many crypto exchanges). As a thing to use temporarily to move funds around it might have a purpose, I'm not sure it's somewhere I'd want to keep any money. There's a general adage in crypto of "If you don't control the private keys, you don't own the coins" meaning anything that's managed by someone else could (and in many cases will) suddenly disappear or it'll look really good on paper until you try and withdraw funds at which point there'll be some problem. The sites claiming to provide 13% interest on investing crypto coins don't fill be with confidence and there have been plenty of scams before that look impressive and offer constant good profits. My best guess is that if legitimate they're doing something a bit like P2P finance, but without any regulation, no named directors/management/staff and often the office address is just a mailbox service. My due diligence usually ends quite quickly with a "stay well clear".
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 25, 2021 20:27:05 GMT
It's certainly not anywhere near as safe as US$, that's for sure. Indeed. Because you've got the platform risk... And, of course, since it's tied 1:1 (honest, guv) with US$, then those same downsides apply equally... So the only possible reasons that I can see to do it are... 1. You're a cryptowonk that can't imagine holding it in real world money simply because it's not crypto. 2. It's hooky cash that you can't take into real-world easily. 3. You haven't twigged the issues yet. So... what AM I missing?
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Post by lotus_eater on May 26, 2021 7:48:11 GMT
It's certainly not anywhere near as safe as US$, that's for sure. Indeed. Because you've got the platform risk... And, of course, since it's tied 1:1 (honest, guv) with US$, then those same downsides apply equally... So the only possible reasons that I can see to do it are... 1. You're a cryptowonk that can't imagine holding it in real world money simply because it's not crypto. 2. It's hooky cash that you can't take into real-world easily. 3. You haven't twigged the issues yet. So... what AM I missing? From what I can tell, it's about moving capital around more easily, keeping the money out of banks (decentralization), and trading other Cryptos more efficiently. I can attest to the fact that any crypto is more easy to move around than fiat at least. I did a bit of googling for you here and Forbes has a crack at it here which seems to explain it a bit. Still doesn't make a lot of sense for someone who's not a big crypto trader, but maybe if you are, it does? I still don't see enough benefits to buy them personally, but we'll see how that goes, never say never. I say that because I was very skeptical (and mocking) of Bitcoin back in 2010 when it was valued at $00.0008c. But man do I wish I would have just invested $100 back then ($6.25b with BTC at $50k just to save you doing the math). So now I'm trying not to be quite so skeptical until I understand things better. Tether now has a market cap of $60b, USDC has $30b. Either there are a lot of "cryptowonks" out there with a LOT of money that are just as dumb as dirt, or there's something I don't quite see yet. Again, I'm not an expert in crypto trading at all, so feel free to use Google to find your answers. I'm just repeating what I read.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 26, 2021 8:03:29 GMT
Indeed. Because you've got the platform risk... And, of course, since it's tied 1:1 (honest, guv) with US$, then those same downsides apply equally... So the only possible reasons that I can see to do it are... 1. You're a cryptowonk that can't imagine holding it in real world money simply because it's not crypto. 2. It's hooky cash that you can't take into real-world easily. 3. You haven't twigged the issues yet. So... what AM I missing? From what I can tell, it's about moving capital around more easily, keeping the money out of banks (decentralization), and trading other Cryptos more efficiently. I can attest to the fact that any crypto is more easy to move around than fiat at least. I did a bit of googling for you here and Forbes has a crack at it here which seems to explain it a bit. Still doesn't make a lot of sense for someone who's not a big crypto trader, but maybe if you are, it does? So what you're saying is that crypto is all a bit closed-off, and once your money's there, it's a sod to turn it back into real money...? That's not sounding like a benefit to me. It's not at all hard to move real-world money around. I have an ii account. I can transfer cash there off my debit card in seconds, and invest it any of a squillion funds in seconds, and liquidate those and transfer it back in seconds. If I want to hold cash in US$/Eur/GBP/AU$ or whatever global currency, I can do that in seconds. (References to real-world money as "fiat" usually set the cryptowonk alarms off in my head... Shite old Italian cars, otoh, can certainly be a bit harder to sell.)May I refer you to my second possible reason?
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Post by mfaxford on May 26, 2021 9:08:42 GMT
Tether now has a market cap of $60b, USDC has $30b. Either there are a lot of "cryptowonks" out there with a LOT of money that are just as dumb as dirt, or there's something I don't quite see yet. There's plenty of "cryptowonks" out there that just believe the hype without understanding the reality. If Tether and USDC are backed 100% by a stable traditional currency (USD/EUR/GBP etc) then those market caps might be accurate but that's a big if. I remember looking at Tether a few years ago and even then there were suggestions of there not being as many USD in a bank account as there were tokens issued. If any of those Tether or USDC tokens are backed by cryptos or thin air then they're potentially worthless. Good luck getting any funds out if you're not in the first few billion USD in any run. I'm not sure how well many people understand market cap. It's only a measure of something at it's current value. As that perceived value changed so will the market cap. Many here have seen how valuations can go wrong and lead to losses in a "regulated" P2P finance industry, much of the crypto world is unregulated, run by small groups of nameless people in countries you probably wouldn't normally do business with. As a case in point I looked a bit at one crypto exchange that was supposedly hacked around Christmas with all funds being lost. It looks to be run by 2-3 people one of whom is Dutch, living in Sweden, with companies listed in the UK (using a mailbox service) and they were about to be licensed in Lithuania (so they say).
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Post by lotus_eater on May 26, 2021 9:43:39 GMT
From what I can tell, it's about moving capital around more easily, keeping the money out of banks (decentralization), and trading other Cryptos more efficiently. I can attest to the fact that any crypto is more easy to move around than fiat at least. I did a bit of googling for you here and Forbes has a crack at it here which seems to explain it a bit. Still doesn't make a lot of sense for someone who's not a big crypto trader, but maybe if you are, it does? So what you're saying is that crypto is all a bit closed-off, and once your money's there, it's a sod to turn it back into real money...? That's not sounding like a benefit to me. It's not at all hard to move real-world money around. I have an ii account. I can transfer cash there off my debit card in seconds, and invest it any of a squillion funds in seconds, and liquidate those and transfer it back in seconds. If I want to hold cash in US$/Eur/GBP/AU$ or whatever global currency, I can do that in seconds. (References to real-world money as "fiat" usually set the cryptowonk alarms off in my head... Shite old Italian cars, otoh, can certainly be a bit harder to sell.)May I refer you to my second possible reason? If I can just refer you to the last line of my last comment where I said "Again, I'm not an expert in crypto trading at all, so feel free to use Google to find your answers. I'm just repeating what I read". The one thing I can say, from personal experience (and we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one); moving large amounts of fiat currency around is NOT easy. If you had ever tried to move 300 or 400k between countries in multiple currencies, you would know this. It takes time, and there are hoops to jump through. And if you want to move millions or billions as some of these hedge funds and whales do, then of course it can be done, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through, and some paperwork. Plus if it's moving in USD there is an entry automatically goes into the US Fed's log (not a problem for most, for some it is). What happened in the last few days with Ethereum at Binance would NOT be possible with Fiat. Just last week I needed to move $100k (in USD) from my securities broker in the USA to my Barclays USD currency account in the UK, then to a crypto broker in Malta (because my US broker will only transfer USD to an international bank, not to another international broker that is not regulated by the SEC). The 100k from my US broker took a couple of business days, then I had to do it in two $50k chunks from Barclays as that's their limit from online transfers and I couldn't be there personally as I'm currently in Portugal. So, total 5 business days from initiation from my broker in the USA to actually be available for trading in the other broker in Malta. Total cost for moving it, about $100 in wire fees. In any cryptocurrency, in any amount, that's about 5 minutes or less (from personal experience). Also turning crypto into cash is easy as pressing a button (again, from personal experience). Of course then you have withdrawal limits with fiat to get it out of the broker, so that takes time, just because it's fiat. I don't think anyone here is trying to convince you to buy crypto. I'm certainly not. I'm always just looking for opportunities, your ride on the rollercoaster might be different to my ride, and that's ok. Good luck with your investments. I'm not sure there is much use in continuing this conversation, seems to be going round and round & I have some sunning to do, and some vinho to drink :-)
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 26, 2021 13:08:09 GMT
Just last week I needed to move $100k (in USD) from my securities broker in the USA to my Barclays USD currency account in the UK, then to a crypto broker in Malta (because my US broker will only transfer USD to an international bank, not to another international broker that is not regulated by the SEC). The 100k from my US broker took a couple of business days, then I had to do it in two $50k chunks from Barclays as that's their limit from online transfers and I couldn't be there personally as I'm currently in Portugal. So, total 5 business days from initiation from my broker in the USA to actually be available for trading in the other broker in Malta. Total cost for moving it, about $100 in wire fees. In any cryptocurrency, in any amount, that's about 5 minutes or less (from personal experience). OK, but how about converting $100k into £ into € without shifting them between financial jurisdictions...? Keeping them held electronically, just converting between currencies as an FX hedge or whatever. But what about converting that BTC into US$ held electronically, rather than into these 1:1 pegged "crypto$"?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on May 28, 2021 21:31:22 GMT
I see police in the Midlands have raided a Bitcoin mine, that was powered by an illegal electricity connection. Estimates are they were using £16k of electric to mine £8k in coins.
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Post by bracknellboy on May 28, 2021 21:50:36 GMT
I see police in the Midlands have raided a Bitcoin mine, that was powered by an illegal electricity connection. Estimates are they were using £16k of electric to mine £8k in coins. this comes under the category of "things you would never ever have expected to have read / written ten years ago".
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 29, 2021 7:28:46 GMT
I see police in the Midlands have raided a Bitcoin mine, that was powered by an illegal electricity connection. Estimates are they were using £16k of electric to mine £8k in coins. this comes under the category of "things you would never ever have expected to have read / written ten years ago". Even they thought it was going to be a drugs raid... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-57280115
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ribs
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Post by ribs on Jun 5, 2021 21:15:18 GMT
Seems a bit of a live event, this. The cryptosphere have been aware of the Tether situation for ages. I only really learned about it last night. 2 hours ago, you see a US finance TV show host with 1.6M Twitter followers start to smell a rat. Also, just learned that 80% of Bitcoin is bought with Tether magic-money versus cash. Don't know if he's hanging about, but ribs , what's your learned take on all of this? Hey,
Sorry for the delay, I don't check in here too often.
My take on Tether: It's a bit useful for traders, to easily buy and sell the price as it goes up and down.
Frankly, it's just another sh*tcoin. If you want Dollars you can get dollars, you don't need crypto for that.
Regarding the FUD... it's just that. I've been hearing about Tether supposedly imploding for ... checks notes... 5 years now. Funnily enough, a USDT is still worth a USD and nothing has happened. Who knew?!
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